In reply to:
Why not post the safety information in the free?
The members exercise their right to post where they wish. The fact that most posts are on the member’s side is because individuals made that decision more often. I suspect it has to do with some of the non-members who have been on hidden agendas.
Paul
Thanks for all the feedback.
I apoligized earlier for my mistaken assumption on the glass panel - but still got criticized further over it. Glass panel’s in general are something I am thinking about seriously - not just in the Cirrus - but planes in general in terms of reliability and not remaining current on the round ones.
I do not feel that I asked it in a cavalier manner - a point of the earlier post. I made a bad assumption that was innocent and could have been easily handled. Let me ask the question though - if I was in the COPA site where it said much speculation/discussion was occuring, would I have been shot at so strongly? I don’t think so.
I have been monitoring the original sr20.org site since before the first sr20 was delivered, I believe, but only every three to six months over the last several years. I wanted to learn more about the plane. I was disappointed when it became a pay site. I would gladly join when I reached the stage where I was very serious about buying the plane. I do pay to belong to several other aviation web sites, frankly even those that do not require it and more than the minimum asked.
I did not assert this was a sales call however. (point 3 on the post above)
And I do apologize about the emotions caused by this particular tragedy, of which I should have been more sensitive. I too have lost friends in accidents. And I too have several friends that own SR22’s.
The whole reason I am monitoring various sites is to learn more and become a safer pilot - nothing more than that.
Further I do get asked my opinions by entry pilots and I wanted to give somewhat informed opinions - and I have steered them here.
My problem has been the continued recurrance of accidents that I periodically read about. Look, I have the same issue on the tail draggers and floats I fly too so I have to think about those. but this is a new class of plane and performance and I want to know how much can be avoided or what to be aware of. I have flown the Cirrus and frankly like it - it would take a bit for me to get used to the landing profile and maybe some speed management compared to dirtier planes but not too bad.
But I do stand by my statement that from what I have read on the PUBLIC section of this there is a lot of quick shooters out there that make it uncomfortable to question safety and reliability issues - and that I haven’t encountered before.
When this site was pure public and we were anticipating the first pirep on the delivery and the first squawks were being discovered, the spirit was great.
Should I join and pay $50 to learn more about safety on this particular plane? Perhaps I should.
But when I ask innocent questions I shouldn’t feel unwanted. And I did.
Freestone:
One of the problems discovered with our internet site, and many other non aviation sites, is the fact that “statements” made here or issues discussed have been taken out of context and used by competing companies to advertise against Cirrus. Not only is that practice misleading to the general public, the facts they present are often outright false.
So, when you posted inaccurate staements about a recent Cirrus accident, I think there was good reason for folks to point that out to the general public that reads this forum.
Moreover, you asked if someone said the same thing on the Member’s side, would they be treated the same way? The answer is absolutely and those folks often are “corrected” for statements that are just not true.
COPA is NOT a blog. The organization has tried very hard to be educational, factual and informative. Heresay and conjecture, without declaring that fact, is misleading and inappropriate.
Particularly with accidents discussions, it helps no one to speculate early on cause when NONE of the facts are present yet.
So here are the only facts as we know them:
Freestone: I actually agree with you. Some of the responses you have received and for that matter it is not uncommon for COPA members to be a bit overzealous in their responses to non-members.
There are several reasons, all of which are pretty benign.
We love our planes and as a group are fairly defensive about them. There is a good reason for this: We all take ‘abuse’ for the parachute and for flying a ‘plastic’ plane. Conversely, there is one major redemption, if you join and look at the Members side, our membership is also excessively critical of the airplane, Cirrus Design and the service centers. Just ask any service center employee or folks at Cirrus Design. Ths slightest issue which even appears to be a flaw gets a thorough vetting and (usually) Cirrus Design gets an absolute tongue lashing. Yhen, our TLs (Technical Liaisons) talk to Cirrus or another vendor, get the real info, publish it and it all settles down. Recent “issues” which recieved this treatment are such esoteric items as the type and spec of brake fluid used and the routing of the static lines.
The Public side is really a COPA marketing tool. It’s purposes are to attract new members. Sometimes we are not good ambassadors for our own cause.
This web site has a history of toads and trolls posting anonymously to stir up matters, sprend inuendo and just to get their kicks. Some of these falsehoods have even gotten to other manufacturers’s sales forces and repeated as facts to potential purchasers. For instance, the Cirruses do not have wood landing gear nor are they impossible to fix. Anonymous posts in the past have suggested as much. When members see a post that appears a bit inflamatory from an anonymous poster who just signed on, they often give is a fairly cool reception - OK, frigid reception. Not an excuse, just an explanation.
For some reason that I do not yet understand, COPA members have a much stronger sense of fellowship and community than members of any other type large club I have seen. When we lose a friend, it is a very personal and emotional time and we tend to be sensitive to outsiders casting aspersions about our friends. Again, no excuses, just an explanation.
So, Freestone, if you are really interested, the wealth of information, the knowledge of the membership and the technical expertise available on the Members side is well worth the fee. I can’t tell you how many members have posted that a fact they learned on our members side saved them many times their membership dues.
Another thing, if you get to know COPA you will soon realize that we are not only one of the fastest growing type clubs, but what we have accomplished in our brief 4 year history is amazing. We have been commended as being one of the best most innovative clubs, and have done it all with volunteers like Mike Radomsky, Marty Weinstien, Gordon Feingold, and yes Barbara Fornell, the victim of the Florida accident.
Lastly, Dennis, is a good guy, well for an attorney anyway! While he came on a bit strong, he is actually one of our more light hearted members. In fact, he told me that if you join, he’ll buy you a bottle of scotch (or whatever you drink). See it’s paying off already.
I’m looking forware to seeing you on the other side.
In reply to:
Particularly with accidents discussions, it helps no one to speculate early on cause when NONE of the facts are present yet.
Let me speculate about speculation!
One could speculate about the cause – what the pilot did for instance – or you could speculate about the circumstances – what the weather was like or the plane behavior, etc.
I learn a lot from the speculation about circumstances and exploring what people would do. Would you recognize various kinds of instrument failure? Do you have experience with practicing to stay focused on the AI when being bounced around in turbulence or when bad stuff is happening? Are you prepared to pull the CAPS handle early before spatial disorientation takes control? Those discussions are really helpful.
What doesn’t help is jumping to conclusions and speculating about the pilot’s decisions.
For sure, we were not there, so we can not know what the pilot was experiencing. We simply can not have the same information. In fact, we might know more than the pilot after the fact and not in real time.
Furthermore, there seem to be too many judgements expressed as speculation using words like “stupid” or “idiot” or “pilot error” – and too many sweeping generalizations without factual basis like “no one would have …” or “Cirrus pilots don’t …” or “glass panels aren’t …”
In COPA safety initiatives, we present several scenarios and encourage speculation about what you would do. That seems to promote learning. Let’s do more of that and less of jumping to conclusions or judgements.
Cheers
Rick
Marty, these are all good points.
For the benefit of “Freestone,” I think there is another factor at work as well.
The members’-side discussion is very open, vigorous, and at times heated. It has the virtue of accountability. Everyone knows the real name and bona fides of everyone else. While the outlook I’m about to describe may well be unfair in the case of “Freestone,” over the years a bias has built up against people who (a) reveal no information about themselves, and (b) have signed up on the site immediately before making their first post. So you, “Freestone,” are reaping the harvest of previous people who, like you, operated anonymously and signed up (literally) yesterday. Again this may be unfair to you, but it’s the product of experience over the years. One way for you to surmount it is to come out of anonymous mode.
FWIW, Jim Fallows (my real name)
In reply to:
FWIW, Jim Fallows (my real name)
I thought you name was Mark Twain.
Then again, I don’t believe that was his real name either.
In reply to:
The members exercise their right to post where they wish. The fact that most posts are on the member’s side is because individuals made that decision more often. I suspect it has to do with some of the non-members who have been on hidden agendas.
Paul
Thanks, and while I understand the hidden agenda maybe there is a way that you could allow non-members access to the member site like a trail viewing or something with none or limited posting ability. Get the chance to see what they could buy. I fly a plane before I buy it, although some people don’t. Didn’t I see in another post somewhere there was a trail membership to owners? How do you confirm ownership?
Tracy
In reply to:
Thanks, and while I understand the hidden agenda maybe there is a way that you could allow non-members access to the member site like a trail viewing or something with none or limited posting ability. Get the chance to see what they could buy. I fly a plane before I buy it, although some people don’t. Didn’t I see in another post somewhere there was a trail membership to owners? How do you confirm ownership?
Tracy
C’mon Tracy; we’re talkin’ 50 bucks here.
Yes, I fly a plane before I buy (and if I do, I at least pay for the gas I just used). I’ll usually pick up a copy of flying magazine that I see on the newstand if they have a story on the plane I’m am interested in. OH, the magazine ain’t free either.
AND yes, new owners get a trail [sp] membership after they have spent $433,000.00 for a new plane. OH, BTW, I hear Cirrus Design gives you free coffee & a donut too.
In reply to:
Didn’t I see in another post somewhere there was a trail membership to owners? How do you confirm ownership? Tracy
Tracy: I think the Trial Membership is a program worked out between Cirrus Design and COPA in the interest of promoting safety among new pilots. As for getting a trial membership, try contacting Mike Radomsky, our Prez, or look at our “About COPA” link/button on the COPA Home Page and contact our membership director.
On the other hand, if you are really serious about joining, especially if you have a Cirrus (That is why you asked about confirming ownership isn’t it?), then take a look at the home page an see what we offer. If you like it sacrifice about 15 gallons of avgas and take the plunge. [;)]
I also am one of those that paid for my membership before committing to purchase my airplane. (I also bought all the magazines I could find on the airplane). I felt it only prudent to invest a penny before spending a dollar. However, I bought it pre-owned and I was NOT treated to a free donut or coffee. In fact, I had to pay for all my instructorsÂ’ snacks and dinners!
I am very happy with my decision to join and then purchase my airplane. I am one of those who have saved more than my membership fees in cost saving ideas. There are plenty of good reasons to join but I personally could care less if a luker doesn’t want to join. Except for the fact that not only may they learn something but we might learn something from their experience.
From my standpoint, I have a greater deal of trust in learning from someone on the member side that has accountability versus someone posting anonymously on the public side. I am not bashing posters on the public side, I just have a great deal more trust in what someone is saying when they have taken imitative and desire to join the organization. I tend to take more time to analyze and research topics of interest to me on the public side if I donÂ’t know that person… if I even read those posts.
I say join if you want, but donÂ’t be frustrated when members donÂ’t respond to many posts here. Most of the reasons why we donÂ’t have been addressed already.
Randy
In reply to:
C’mon Tracy; we’re talkin’ 50 bucks here.
Yes, I fly a plane before I buy (and if I do, I at least pay for the gas I just used). I’ll usually pick up a copy of flying magazine that I see on the newstand if they have a story on the plane I’m am interested in. OH, the magazine ain’t free either.
AND yes, new owners get a trail [sp] membership after they have spent $433,000.00 for a new plane. OH, BTW, I hear Cirrus Design gives you free coffee & a donut too.
LOL, if its only $50, then why dont you give it for FREE (my thought when the dealership is trying to get you up another $1000, its alot more to you then them). Lets talk about the $250,000 SR20 that is only a year or so old, does that person get the same treatment, I think not (From Cirrus). In that same comment, lets talk about Avidyne and Emax lockup and their solution is upgrade the revision (at owners cost). They must be following Microsoft on that idea. PFD failues and a 3+ week turn around. Thank goodness the plane is still in warranty.
/rant
I only remember the coffee.
This thread is sort of reminding me of the old Yacht joke … if you have to ask “how much”, you can’t afford it.
Maybe COPA should offer a “30 Day Money Back”, so those who are concerned about investing the $50, can feel assured they’ll get their money’s worth.
In reply to:
I also am one of those that paid for my membership before committing to purchase my airplane. (I also bought http://www.harmonyes.all the magazines I could find on the airplane). I felt it only prudent to invest a penny before spending a dollar. However, I bought it pre-owned and I was NOT treated to a free donut or coffee.
That’s horrible. NO DONUTS & COFFEE. My plane won’t fly in the morning without coffee. Gas & oil for the plane, coffee for me.
You come down here right now & I will personally buy you a donut & coffee.
I mean, talk about a hundred dollar hamburger . . . er, donut.
TO THE COPA BOARD: I believe that we should institute a new policy that every new member gets a coupon for coffee & a donut.
OK Dennis–as an x cop–I can’t resist----I will take his donut!!! [;)]
In reply to:
LOL, if its only $50, then why dont you give it for FREE (my thought when the dealership is trying to get you up another $1000, its alot more to you then them).
OK, let’s start there. We are not a dealership. COPA is a free standing volunteer organization wherein the volunteers give selflessly of their time. Unfortunatly, all this on-line stuff cost money. We can give it to you wholesale, but that it. . . wholesale, eg no profit, eg no one here gets paid. All we ask of our members is that they help cover costs. I.E. 50 bucks
In reply to:
Lets talk about the $250,000 SR20 that is only a year or so old, does that person get the same treatment, I think not (From Cirrus).
Well actually, my experience with Cirrus Design is “yes”, when I bought my first pre-owned SR20 Cirrus Design gave me the same professionalism as they do, and have done to those who purchased from Cirrus Design. BUT, we are not Cirrus Design. We are COPA, a bunch of volunteers and pilots who care about each other.
In reply to:
In that same comment, lets talk about Avidyne and Emax lockup and their solution is upgrade the revision (at owners cost).
Lets not.
This issues you raise have probably in excess of 10,000 posts (really) worth of thought and discussion, but no, you don’t want to join, so we should all discuss it all over here again just for your benefit. Do I have that right?
In reply to:
OK Dennis–as an x cop–I can’t resist----I will take his donut!!!
Hey! Stay away from my donut, I’m an ex-cop too! I better go preflight my airplane right now.
Another way to avoid this type of issue is to do away with the non-member side. If you want to see anything COPA, then become a member. However, since we do have a non-member side, we should be always remember the true and only Golden Rule, and I mean the one that starts " Do unto others…".
In reply to:
…we should be always remember the true and only Golden Rule, and I mean the one that starts " Do unto others…".
Warren,
Yes, that rule is Golden. It’s usually expressed something like “Do unto others as you would wish them do unto you.”
Then there’s Mike’s Variation - The PLATINUM Rule: Do unto others as THEY would like to be done unto! [;)]