Dear COPA Folks:
I am in the midst of final due diligence about whether or not to put my fresh out of dual engine overhaul/mods/annual '84 Seneca III up for sale and take a position on a yet to be manufactured 22GTS on leaseback to Cirrus as a demonstrator while I try and sell the Seneca.
YES, I WILL JOIN COPA IF I DO THIS!!
It looks like annual costs will be a wash with decreased direct costs and increased indirect costs for loan servicing, etc. I see that on the one hand I have turbos, Known Ice certification, FL240 capability and a second mill in lieu of a chute. On the other I have equal speed and payload, pretty much, better viz, comfort and safety features. Direct fuel, hangar costs will be down. I live in Duluth, so I will be victim of an obscene sales and registration tax. I will also have to come up with deposit and down payment, versus my share of the OH/mod/annual costs.
The main reason I’m considering the leaseback arrangement is to have the time to sell the Seneca and get out from under what I owe the bank(s).
Has anyone had experience with doing the sale/leaseback program? Overall thoughts on the two birds, pros and cons? I appreciate those of you willing to discuss this on the “public” side.
And, yes, I will join COPA after I write the first “big check”!
And, yes, I will join COPA after I write the first “big check”!
Best regards,
Andy Niemyer (KDLH)
I’m not going to do it. As a fellow Whale (A-3)driver, I am not going to tell you how to make what amounts to be a “business decision”, but there I two things I will do for my Navy bretheran.
Buy the Cirrus
Before you spend the, almost $500,000 on a new Cirrus, spend the $50 bucks. All the discussion you want and all of your questions will be answered.
and this is a bonus. Seek tax advise as much of your decision will be based upon the tax implicaitons and benefits.
Andy:
I am not on a campagin to build COPA membership—but, as a due diligence tool, this would be the best 50 bucks I ever spent on great source for all the questions you are asking with in depth answers and then some!! If you are seeking out quality answers to your questions, join COPA then get into the archives–a plethera of relevant info to help you make a really smart decision.
I tried to entice COPA members to reply to your post, but because the Public forums are Google-indexed, people are loathe to respond here. For the cost of about 20 minutes of operating that Seneca, consider joining as part of due diligence.
I have several hundred hours in Cirri, as well as about three hundred in Seneca I+II’s (no III). As I see it, one of the big factors is going to be how much you’ll miss that Known Ice, and how often you fly low IFR.
The Cirrus will be far more pleasant, comfortable, and easy to fly than your Seneca, but there’s undeniable value in a second motor in low IMC that even the chute can’t compensate for. Next, as great as the TKS is, it’s not certified for FIKI, so even a quick descent through a thousand foot overcast layer in the winter is putting your license on the line, every time.
But- no cowl flaps, no gear lever, no prop controls, one throttle and mixture, and no annoying fixed wastegate turbos to worry about overboosting. For VFR and “lite” IFR trips, your workload (and most likely enjoyment) will be lower in a Cirrus. If you don’t train (recurrent) frequently in the twin, you’ll probably be safer in a Cirrus, as well.
So that’s the big line for me- mostly VFR and IFR>800’, or a lot of low IFR, and IFR during the winter? Frequent mountain flying and/ or over water might tip the balance, as well…
Dennis:
Holy cow, here it is: 147665, 28 April 1983, NGZ-NGZ 2.1 hours. First non-EA-3B flight for me! Sister to 147666, a.k.a. “Christine”!! Your name is really familiar; I was VQ-2 '76-79, VAK-1087 '82-'83 and VAK-308 '83-'88. Were you in 208?
Well if a fellow Whaler is giving me the Cirrus gouge, it’s gotta be the good stuff. I’ll pay the $50.
BTW, check out a3skywarrior.com. Next Whale reunion at KCRP first weekend in November. Be there!
Jerry:
Good thought, I’ll run past my law firm. Problem is that MN Revenue and DOT look at situs. MN based plane is subject to MN taxes, even if owned by an out of state company, IIRC it operates in or out of MN more than 60 days/year. But we’ll see. Thanks for the idea! Enjoy Port Orchard, spent some time flying out of Whidbey.
“Hats Off” award to Tom Morrison for renaming our archived data section from, “archives” to the much more modern and energetic new name, the, “plethera of relevant info” section
As your prize, you will be receiving a model of the famous DA42 twin diesel. These models are available because Diamond doesn’t seem to be able get the real thing out the door here in the U.S.
hahaha----I cancelled that thing a year ago—I told Diamond there was this guy on the COPA site that had a vendetta against Diamond and they better listen to him and sick their attorney on him!! Have they called you yet??? [;)]
I will be in a GTS some day----just have some different priorities for a while!
hahaha----I cancelled that thing a year ago—I told Diamond there was this guy on the COPA site that had a vendetta against Diamond and they better listen to him and sick their attorney on him!! Have they called you yet???
I will be in a GTS some day----just have some different priorities for a while!
My vendetta is against people and companies that make promises but don’t deliver.
One mans’ “puffing”, is anothers “deception”. For me, the Diamond twin has fallen into that arena.
Neil:
We have similar ideas about this! I fly into low IFR infrequently, usually only in spring/summer/fall when it’s fog. I have flown the Seneca to mins, but it was in May. I have encountered icing 3 times in GA, all inadvertent, all very, very uncomfortable. Thing I have found is that since most of my flying is discretionary, I cancel when there’s no kidding icing, not just trace on a climb or descent through a thin stratus layer on a winter approach into somewhere. But you’re quite right, by doing so we could arguably be in violation of the “Forecast equals known” rule the ALJ’s seem to love. I find up here, it’s more simply too cold to make going flying fun!
Other than crossing Lake Michigan to get the Seneca serviced and when I delivered my Lance to where I purchased the Seneca, I don’t normally go “feet wet” if I can help it. I did too much of that in a previous life! The trick is to go high if you’re single engine.
Thanks again for your insights. Looks like I’m going to have to spring the $$ to “get to the other side”!
For what it’s worth, that is exactly what I heard from my tax guy. You can try to get around the MN rules, but it’s hell to pay if you get caught. I paid the piper.
Dennis:
Holy cow, here it is: 147665, 28 April 1983, NGZ-NGZ 2.1 hours. First non-EA-3B flight for me! Sister to 147666, a.k.a. “Christine”!! Your name is really familiar; I was VQ-2 '76-79, VAK-1087 '82-'83 and VAK-308 '83-'88. Were you in 208?
Well if a fellow Whaler is giving me the Cirrus gouge, it’s gotta be the good stuff. I’ll pay the $50.Andy
Too many #'s and initials for me to remember. I have enough trouble remembering my “N” number.
I was with Heavy 123, the rag outfit at Whidbey.
Also, when you join, tell them I sent ya. Maybe I’ll get a commission.
Dennis:
When were you in Heavy 123? I know some guys from that period. Like most of us in naval aviation, we probably have some old squadron mates in common.
BTW, joined COPA, having some problems getting into the members-only side, but I’m sure I’ll solve it.
Dennis:
When were you in Heavy 123? I know some guys from that period. Like most of us in naval aviation, we probably have some old squadron mates in common.
BTW, joined COPA, having some problems getting into the members-only side, but I’m sure I’ll solve it.
Best,
Andy
Andy; Management is going to break off this conversation soon because it’s “Off Topic”.
For these type of discussions, it’s best to use the “private message” service that COPA provides. You can find it under “personal settings” "Send a PM (private message) It’s just one of the many benefits of COPA.
Now, all you need is a Cirrus.
I was at Whidbey from about 69’-72
Just keep a 3 degree up angle of attack and have fun on the forum. I only wish we had this level of interaction and communication in the military. I might have stayed longer.
