Somewhere I read a great article where a controller explained in detail what to say and what not to say. I remember being surprised that
“Atlanta Center, Cirrus 913CD request”
was less than he wanted to hear. He explained the extra workload generated when things weren’t said and even counted out the steps. Now I can’t remember where I saw the article. Can anyone help?
In reply to:
Somewhere I read a great article where a controller explained in detail what to say and what not to say. I remember being surprised that
“Atlanta Center, Cirrus 913CD request”
was less than he wanted to hear. He explained the extra workload generated when things weren’t said and even counted out the steps. Now I can’t remember where I saw the article. Can anyone help?
Was this the article?
How much they want to hear depends on how busy they are. If you can hear that the controller is really busy, it is best to use the “request” approach. They will either ask you to go ahead, ask you to call them back in X minutes, or tell you they are unable to provide flight following.
If you can tell that not much is going on the “request” approach is a waste of time. Just give them the whole story on the initial call up. Tell them who you are (N913CD), what you are(Cirrus SR22/G), where you are (over DLH), your altitiude (3500 feet) and what you want (request flight following to KMSP).
All these questions, and just us to talk with
It got me thinken.
If all these pilots have all of these questions it is all together possible that many pilots have never been to an ATC facility at all.
Anyhow, all I am getting at is that I have made tentative arrangements to get a tour of the ATC radar & tower facility here, in Miami (Class B) including, but not limited to (sorry, that’s lawyer talk) meeting with our own air traffic controller for as long as we want.
I have not finalized any times or dates and await hearing from those interested.
It would most likely be a Sat. day time, in the near future, toward late Aug.
For those flying in, arrangements would have to be made to get you from either Opa Locka or Tamiami. For those driving, you would just get there yourself.
They do have a security requirement that all visitors are American citizens (I guess Americans are not self subversive.)
Let me know if you are interested and I will make the arrangements.
As a side note, the shift supervisor who I spoke to said he would love to meet some of those pilots flying those pissy little planes that think they are better than a 747.
I told him that all of us think we fly planes better then a 747.
Thanks. That’s it.
In reply to:
How much they want to hear depends on how busy they are. If you can hear that the controller is really busy, it is best to use the “request” approach. They will either ask you to go ahead, ask you to call them back in X minutes, or tell you they are unable to provide flight following.
If you can tell that not much is going on the “request” approach is a waste of time. Just give them the whole story on the initial call up. Tell them who you are (N913CD), what you are(Cirrus SR22/G), where you are (over DLH), your altitiude (3500 feet) and what you want (request flight following to KMSP).
Bill: I (used to) agree with you, but in the referenced column in AvWeb, Dave Brown, I think, says that the “request” call is just a waste of his time. His suggestion is to call and say, “N1234CD Request descent 10,000,” or whatever your request is. He can still ignore you but he has all the info and does not need a second round of calls to figure out what you want. Personally, I see his point, but would like to hear another controller confirm this perspective.
What is the BEST way to ask for each of the following:
To pick up a pre-filed clearance once in the air from an uncontrolled airport
Get a quick clearance when confronted with an immediate need i.e. IFR conditions ahead and flying VFR
I have done number 1 many times but suspect my calls are a bit wordy.
In reply to:
Bill: I (used to) agree with you, but in the referenced column in AvWeb, Dave Brown, I think, says that the “request” call is just a waste of his time. His suggestion is to call and say, “N1234CD Request descent 10,000,” or whatever your request is. He can still ignore you but he has all the info and does not need a second round of calls to figure out what you want. Personally, I see his point, but would like to hear another controller confirm this perspective.
I think there may be regional differences. And, it depends on how much you want to say. If you are already have a code and you want to change altitude or heading, just tell them what you want. But, if your are trying to get into the system and they are obviously busy, I think the “request” is preferred. In SoCal, there are times when controllers are talking almost nonstop and it is difficult to get a word in edgewise. Indeed, there are times when so many trasmissions are being stepped on that the controllers only want to hear from a certain few, and they say so.
According to the controllers I know, whatr they want to hear depends on how busy they are. I agree that “request” is a waste of time for short requests when you are already IFR or have flight following.
Paul,
When departing an uncontrolled airport in VFR, maintain VFR and call the controlling facility with “Cirrus 1234 off ABC, like to pick up my IFR clearance to XYZ”.
The controller will first give you a transponder code and when he sees you will verfify your altitude and give you the clearance.
Regarding an immediate need for IFR, my real advice is not to get yourself into that situation.
In reply to:
- Get a quick clearance when confronted with an immediate need i.e. IFR conditions ahead and flying VFR
If you are talking to the final approach controller for the airport you are going into, then I just say, “Request IFR approach into XXX”. If you are enroute, then you are really asking a lot. If it was important and he was busy I might ask, “Request popup IFR for weather” and let him tell me if he can do it. If they are less busy, I try to wheedle a bit, “Could you handle an IFR popup to XXX?” Even in California where the controllers are very laid back they are often too busy and refer me to Flight Service.
I just read Dave Brown’s article and I agree with what he says. That is, you should say that you are requesting VFR advisories (or flight following). Notice that he does not say that you should give him all the information he will need on the initial call.
Bill,
Not only are there regional differences but there are differences from facility to facility and even controller to controller.
Here the radar guys prefer the first call up to be “Name of facility you are calling and your call sign”. They will call you back and then get the info. Towers on the other hand want you to tell them who you are, where you are and what you want on the initial call up.
Of course all this relates to VFR. IFR the controller already knows who you are, hopefully where you are and that you’ve been handed off.
Personally, if I have a request and am IFR if the controller is obviously busy I’ll say, “Center. 1970 with request” and wait for him to respond. If not much is going on I’ll make the request on the initial call, e.g. “Center, 1970 requesting 12,000”.
In reply to:
I just read Dave Brown’s article and I agree with what he says. That is, you should say that you are requesting VFR advisories (or flight following). Notice that he does not say that you should give him all the information he will need on the initial call.
Agreed, but I read his main point, and my point in the previous post, to mean that one you had established comms, subsequent calls for “requests” should ask the request, not just say “request.” The latter would require an additional round of comms. For instance:
Atlanta Center Cirrus 1KM, Request
Cirrus 1KM Say Request
Cirrus 1KM Request descent to 10,000
Cirrus 1KM, descend and maintain 10,000 ten thousand feet.
Vs.
Atlanta Center Cirrus 1KM requests descent to 10,000
Cirrus 1KM Descend and maintain one zero, ten thousand
AC could also respond with silence, “1KM stand by,” or “1KM, Maintain 12,000.”
In all instances the entire transaction is more concise. Quite frankly, he also suggests leaving off the “Atlanta Center.”
My practice is to only use the “request” call up if the request is other than direct flight clearances. For example, If I may need WX help or a reroute, then I use request. I use it to signify a lower priority request. However, in all situations I try to tailor my phraseology to the congestion on the freq.
In reply to:
Bill,
Not only are there regional differences but there are differences from facility to facility and even controller to controller.
I agree Jerry. Once when returning to Louisville, KY (LOU), flying on an IFR clearance, already performing a bit of a slam dunk, I was handed off to the tower about 4-5 miles out. My initial call to the tower was, "Bowman Tower, Cirrus 191KM 4,500 descending 3,000 Whisky.: The response was, “Cirrus N191KM go ahead.” I was a bit surprised, and at a bit of a loss for words. (Yes, I know there is a first for everything![;)]) At the time I was a little busy. I was on an IFR plan, inbound from another airport, just handed off (late I might add) from Approach, who had already cleared me for the visual approach.
I spoke with the controller later and they admitted that they were looking for my intent. They had expected me to add that I was on the visual for runway xx. I still think that this was not necessary. Approach had already cleared me for it and should have communicated such to the tower with the handoff. If for some reason they were missing info, they should have just asked for it specifically. Other than my workload, the area was not congested. Just goes to show that one man’s concise is another’s lack of communication.
In reply to:
Bill,
Not only are there regional differences but there are differences from facility to facility and even controller to controller.
Here the radar guys prefer the first call up to be “Name of facility you are calling and your call sign”. They will call you back and then get the info. Towers on the other hand want you to tell them who you are, where you are and what you want on the initial call up.
Of course all this relates to VFR. IFR the controller already knows who you are, hopefully where you are and that you’ve been handed off.
Personally, if I have a request and am IFR if the controller is obviously busy I’ll say, “Center. 1970 with request” and wait for him to respond. If not much is going on I’ll make the request on the initial call, e.g. “Center, 1970 requesting 12,000”.
Yes, there are idiosyncratic practices. Locally, I often get responses like “Hi, Bill. Where are you going today.” Or at my airport I’ll hear something like “Good evening, Bill. Cleared to land, taxi to the El Cahon Yacht Club.” El Cahon Yacht Club (yes, that is the way we spell Cajon) is a joke reference to our hangar community. If you land at KSEE and tell ground that you want to go to the yacht club, they will know exactly what you mean. The official name, by the way, is Speer Field.
How about this one:
How many times have you been on an IFR flight plan and you are given a new frequency to call and, when you dial it up, the controller is talking non stop to several planes?
All you wan to to do is “check in”. The handoff from the previous controller is usually automatic so the new controller already knows you are coming on borad before you call him.
I have, in situations like this, have not tried to break into the busy controller’s dialogue with multiple other planes. I just wait, often several minutes and one of two things happen.
Either the chatter finally calms down and you can call, or, often times, the controller will call me first when he is able and willing to talk to me.
To me, it means we should not be obsessed about “needing” to call that new controller right away. And, in addition, it is sometimes better from him to call you when he is able. Makes for better"flow".
That’s precisely the way I have been saying it. My wife added a lot of info the other day and it clearly confused the controller so she got jumped on. When she repeated to me what she had said, I explained what I heard and she said “Oh, I guess that’s what the controller thought he heard. But what I was trying to say was…” She had tried to give position, current actions and intent. So her call was something like " Atlanta Center, Cirrus 748CD out of Swainsborough, 2 for 6 direct Dublin would like clearance". He replied “I don’t have you on a ticket. Who said you could have 6000?” I told here her she should have used “Atlanta Center, Cirrus 748CD out of Swainsborough, 2,000 climbing. Would like to pick up my clearance.” Then I wondered if there was a more precise and concise way than “Would like to pick up my clearance.” BTW, I also told her that by giving here expected, i.e. filed, altitude rather than a VFR altitude, she had falsely indicated she was already IFR.
Yep, we agree. Say what you are requesting; if the controller sounds busy tailor communications to the situation.
In reply to:
Agreed, but I read his main point, and my point in the previous post, to mean that one you had established comms, subsequent calls for “requests” should ask the request, not just say “request.” The latter would require an additional round of comms. For instance:
Atlanta Center Cirrus 1KM, Request
Cirrus 1KM Say Request
Cirrus 1KM Request descent to 10,000
Cirrus 1KM, descend and maintain 10,000 ten thousand feet.Vs.
Atlanta Center Cirrus 1KM requests descent to 10,000
Cirrus 1KM Descend and maintain one zero, ten thousandAC could also respond with silence, “1KM stand by,” or “1KM, Maintain 12,000.”
In all instances the entire transaction is more concise. Quite frankly, he also suggests leaving off the “Atlanta Center.”
My practice is to only use the “request” call up if the request is other than direct flight clearances. For example, If I may need WX help or a reroute, then I use request. I use it to signify a lower priority request. However, in all situations I try to tailor my phraseology to the congestion on the freq.
Marty,
I haven’t read the article. Generally, I agree. My practice is as follows:
If I’m VFR making first contact, I say “XYZ Approach, Cirrus November One Mike Romeo, VFR Request” (or, if they’re NOT busy, I make the request).
The point of the “VFR” in my initial callup is to save the controller the mental exercise (sometimes a scramble) of looking over the callsigns of aircraft that might be on his handoff list.
I almost never start my transmission with the name of the faciility except on my initial call to that facility. Doing so at other times is another case where the controller’s brain is put into the “Here’s a new aircraft for me to handle” mode, albeit fleetingly. For me, the exception to this rule embodied in…
1MR requesting ten thousand
(No response)
… wait a while…
1MR requesting ten thousand
(No response)
… wait a while…
1MR, request
(No response)
… wait a while…
Philly Approach, November 1MR, how do you read?
Calling Philly Approach, say again, I was on the land line… (or similar)
Relatively speaking, we’re all counting angels on a pinhead here… the main point is for pilots and controllers to communicate clearly, and be sensitive to bandwidth when things are busy.
<<I agree Jerry. Once when returning to Louisville, KY (LOU), flying on an IFR clearance, already performing a bit of a slam dunk, I was handed off to the tower about 4-5 miles out. My initial call to the tower was, "Bowman Tower, Cirrus 191KM 4,500 descending 3,000 Whisky.: The response was, “Cirrus N191KM go ahead.” I was a bit surprised, and at a bit of a loss for words. (Yes, I know there is a first for everything!) >>
Normally, when handed off to the approach controller, you would tell them your altitude and if you have atis.
“Denver approach, Cirrus 7171X descending through one two thousand for 8 thousand, Wiskey”
Then (eventually) an approach controller will clear you for an approach and tell you to contact tower.
“Denver tower, Cirrus 7171X visual 27 left”
There is no need to tell them the altitude at that point.
Now if a non-radar tower, sometimes it helps to tell them where you are.
“Texarkana tower, Cirrus 7171X, over MARIE, visual runway 4”
Jerry