Brian,
I agree 100%
The controller knows you are there (he accepted the handoff). If you don’t get a word in for a few minutes nothing is lost. The real reason for the initial call is to ensure communications are established and that you can actually hear each other. Assuming you hear him there is an extremely high probability that he’ll be able to hear you when you can get a word in.
The real key to ALL IFR communications (VFR too for that matter) is to use common sense.
Good point, Brian.
When you are initially handed off, you aren’t even in that next controller’s airspace.
It’s also not unusual, that you physically CANT get in touch with the next controller for 20-25 miles. Espescially true in the mountains.
Jerry
In reply to:
Even in California where the controllers are very laid back they are often too busy and refer me to Flight Service.
Well, I guess it’s that regional thing again. In 29 years of IFR flying in SoCal I have never, not once, been referred to Flight Service when requesting an IFR popup. I don’t do that very often because intra-SoCal I’m almost always already on an IFR “TEC” route, but when coming back to SBA VFR and the fog rolls in early, if I know about it well ahead of time I’ll ask LA Center for a clearance to SBA and it’s mine. That way when I get handed off to Santa Barbara approach I’m already IFR and sequenced. But I have never had Santa Barbara approach (nor any other SoCal approach facility) turn down a pop-up approach request, either. So it’s all about where you live, and probably a little about whether you sound like a squirrel or not.
Jerry:
As usual, we agree agian. The other one for folks to note:
When you do call the controller and he does not answer right away, do not pund him/her with second and third call ups in the first minute as often they are on a land line or are busy typing somebody’s request.
The idea IS to establish communication but I have seen too much anxiety to get that call in right away and, if you do not get an instant reply, to keep calling again and again.
I usually wait at least a minute before I make that second call if I have not heard back for the controller. You will know at least the frequebcy is working if you hear other planes calling the same facility.
And if you really want to find out more about this stuff and what it’s like from the controller’s side, NATCA puts on a communicating for safety seminar every year in the spring.
The meeting for 2005 is in Milwaukee.
http://safety.natca.net/Communicating_for_Safety.htm
Jerry
In reply to:
Good point, Brian.
When you are initially handed off, you aren’t even in that next controller’s airspace.
It’s also not unusual, that you physically CANT get in touch with the next controller for 20-25 miles. Espescially true in the mountains.
Jerry
Right! In Montana, Wyoming, Utah and Colorado there are several places along the low altitude airways, even above 15,000 feet or so, where radar coverage is lost and where you can expect to be out of contact with any controller for several minutes. Often the controller will tell you approximately where on the airway you can expect to be able to regain radio contact.
In reply to:
And if you really want to find out more about this stuff and what it’s like from the controller’s side, NATCA puts on a communicating for safety seminar every year in the spring.
The meeting for 2005 is in Milwaukee.
http://safety.natca.net/Communicating_for_Safety.htm
Jerry
Jerry,
Good tip. There are also some good printed references - one of my favorites is Sweet Talking The System, by Andrew Douglas. It’s a good book.
- Mike.
Mike,
In reply to:
good printed references - one of my favorites is Sweet Talking The System, by Andrew Douglas
Thanks for the tip. I just ordered a copy.
Dennis,
That’s a great idea. Prior to 9/11 most Centers had what was called “operation raincheck” in which pilots were encouraged to visit and tour the facility and plug in with a live controller. This was also done by TRACONS. I thought they discontinued the practice after 9/11 but apparently they’re open again.
Personally I think ALL instrument pilots owe it to themselves to visit several ATC facilities. The understanding you get of the system and of the incredibly talented and dedicated people who work the system is invaluable. All of a sudden, procedures that seem to make no sense make lots of sense when you see why the controllers have you fly certain routes, restrict some altitudes etc.
Dennis - sounds like a great idea. I’d go.
I am amazed.
Everyone squawks about their need for a better understanding of ATC procedures and practices.
Now the opportunity is available to get a “hands on” understanding, tour, and meeting with those guys and gals on the other side of our headsets.
Even Dr. Seckler (an active anti-lawyerist) has endorsed this adventure set up by one loyal lawyer.
AND only 1 person is interested in going.
WHAT GIVES?
Is this what happens when I don’t attach a picture? It falls off the radar screen?
Dennis, I would like to go also. Denis
Dennis,
I think this is a great idea. Here in Charleston I have arranged 3 toweer tours. One before 9/11 and two after.
The controllers are great and it is a great view of their world.
I send out a notice to each airport flying club i our area and have a sign up sheet. Most tours have had 30 plus pilots and spouses.
I encourage everyone in Florida to try to make Dennis’s tower tour. It is well worth the time.
Mason
Dennis,
Good idea - if I’m in town I’d like to attend.
Were are doing one here in Little Rock next month, Only class C. Anyone interested call Central Flying Service, Flight Training, Don Optiz at 501-975-9330
A flying club I am in, Georgia Flyers, was going to visit Atlanta Tracon when an increased alert level got it canceled. We did get a controller to speak at one club meeting. He did a great job and showed video of the screens to let us see the flow patterns into and out of the local airspace. I found out the end of one of the lines for ATL starts in Virginia. It helped explain why clearances coe out the way they do. He showed the standard entry and exit points in the area.
I think it is a good idea, if possible, to visit BOTH an approach facility AND the center. They carry on very different operations. I have been lucky enough to visit both in the past.
The problem with visiting a center is that there are only about 20 of them around the country. I happen to live close to the Washington Center facility in Leesburg, VA.
It is a REAL education and highly recommended.
In reply to:
I think it is a good idea, if possible, to visit BOTH an approach facility AND the center. They carry on very different operations. I have been lucky enough to visit both in the past.
I initially checked into touring both facilities however “Center” is off limits and has been since 9/11. At least here in Miami.
I don’t understand why Approach Control & Tower permit visitors, and Center doesn’t, but who am I to question the wisdom of our government.
In reply to:
if I know about it well ahead of time I’ll ask LA Center for a clearance to SBA and it’s mine. That way when I get handed off to Santa Barbara approach I’m already IFR and sequenced. But I have never had Santa Barbara approach (nor any other SoCal approach facility) turn down a pop-up approach request, either. So it’s all about where you live, and probably a little about whether you sound like a squirrel or not.
I agree the approaches will almost always give you an IFR into one of their airports. Its with the Center’s I find it more hit&miss. Going to LA down the Central Valley ZLA will often defer and have me get the clearance from Fresno or SoCal Approach. Oakland Center usually can do it going north, but coming south to the Bay Area they get busy when SFO’s unexpectedly had to stop parallel approaches and they are spinning airliners over PYE and SUNOL. That’s when I’ve been walked.
Curtis: One exception is Las Vegas Approach. After the last CPPP there, departing VGT the tower told us that there was some substantial delay if we waited on the ground for our clearance so we just departed VFR and called Las Vegas Approach airborne and asked them to activate our IFR flight plan to CCB, Upland, CA. I got no response to our request to open the IFR flight plan with a couple of sectors of Las Vegas Approach. All they wanted to do was give us vectors out of their airspace. I just figured that we would wait until we were with Los Angeles Center and open with them. Los Angeles Center was very accommodating.
It turned out that the IFR clearance was necessary as the Ontario, CA area was covered by low ceilings and we got a chance to fly an actual VOR 6 approach into CCB.