Wish I could do the math

Guest Discussion
1

Got my SR22 package today, so why am I so p***** off, disappointed?

As it happens, my SR22 position #56 turned into a delivery date of Jan 31, 2002. So why does that p*** me off?

They did not give me a slot number!! So why does that p*** me off?

A slot number would not only tell me how many SR20 folks moved in front of me, but it would also tell the SR20 holders how much they had moved up in line.

IMHO, Cirrus has taken an opportunity to cover up past manipulations and to treat the up-moving (is there such a word?) SR20 holders like mushrooms.

Cirrus, WHAT IS MY POSITION NUMBER?

And so we wait.

2

Got my SR22 package today, so why am I so p***** off, disappointed?

As it happens, my SR22 position #56 turned into a delivery date of Jan 31, 2002. So why does that p*** me off?

They did not give me a slot number!! So why does that p*** me off?

A slot number would not only tell me how many SR20 folks moved in front of me, but it would also tell the SR20 holders how much they had moved up in line.

IMHO, Cirrus has taken an opportunity to cover up past manipulations and to treat the up-moving (is there such a word?) SR20 holders like mushrooms.

Cirrus, WHAT IS MY POSITION NUMBER?

And so we wait.

I upgraded my position to the SR22 and received the same expected delivery date April 30th, 2001 as was the SR20. That is why I purchased my position at a premium for the 20 from someone else and then upgraded. It was known to me that the SR22 would be “in line” with the SR20 holders. So you could purchase another position at a premium like I did or wait like the rest of the patient pilots. I think it will be well worth the wait and they will have enough behind them that yours will be everything you expect and more. Your new position # will be dependent on exactly how many send their contracts back by Oct 16th Respectfully submitted…Rick formerly #192

3

Chuck,

Relax, and take a deep breath. My paperwork did

not have a position number on it either.

  1. Your position number doesn’t matter, all that

    really matters is when you get the plane.

  2. The scheduled delivery date on your contract

    is likely to be conservative.

Why?

CD has sent out a lot of new contracts to SR20

owners saying they “might” upgrade. If I were

them, I wouldn’t start assigning positions until

I had their signed and executed contracts back in

my hot little hands.

I bet if you wait about 3 weeks after October 16th

(give them some time to let the dust settle) and

ask them what your position number is, they will

let you know. They MAY even be planning on
sending out a letter. That said, again,

“who cares?”

The only thing that matters is the real delivery

date (and the price :-)).

4

They did not give me a slot number!!

Cirrus, WHAT IS MY POSITION NUMBER?

How could they possibly know this, given that there’s still 10 days for people to send in finalized upgrade contracts?

And, what difference does it make, as long as they’re willing to state a date for your plane?

(And, they CAN set a date for your plane even if they haven’t gotten all the contracts back and don’t know how many “slots” are ahead of hyou, because if they get more upgrades they can allot more of the production to 22s rather than 20s.)

5

My SR20 position was #249, I received my SR22 package today with a projected delivery date of 28 September 2001. A 180+ kt airplane with advanced avionics and a parachute for about the same $$ as a new 182–amazing.

Some questions I will call CD to ask:

  1. Will I be eligible for “A” configuration, or should I trade farther back in line to get past the first 100 which will be “B?”

  2. What is the 50% flap extension speed? The spec sheet only says 104 kt for 100% flaps. I hope it’s something like 140 kt. A 120 kt 50% flaps extension limit would put the sr22 in the same situation as the sr20 was with a 100 kt Vfe, i.e., you’d have to shed about 40 kt indicated airspeed from cruise down to Vfe. That’s rather difficult in a slippery plane like the Cirrus.

  3. What is the projected CG envelope? It’s probably not as generous as the 260se (I can’t figure out a way to load that thing past the aft limit unless I put uranium ingots in both the back seat and baggage compartment), but how would it compare to the SR20?

  4. Estimated fuel flows at 65%/75% cruise? I’m guessing 16/18 gph. Any of you Bonanza owners chime in on this? I understand that one could back off to 10-11 gph and see the same cruise as the SR20.

  5. How’s the engine and oil cooling–same as the SR20 or modified in some way? I see that the landing light has been moved to the lower cowl which may help.

6

Also received the FedEx to upgrade to SR22 although I said I didn’t want one. Contract is so poorly prepared that it doesn’t even state which configuration I would have received.

This company has a lot to learn about contract preparations. For example, I know of a position holder that is one number greater than mine and has a delivery date that is one month earlier???

Regarding Ian Bently’s comment on the number of contracts that were going out is probably inflated to make you feel more pressure to jump into something than the company is already putting on you with the resopnd by 10/2 & 10/16 dates.

My contract also indicated that upgrade delivery date would be several months earlier than original delivery date???

It will be VERY unsettling to learn that Cirrus is pushing delivers of the SR22 ahead of original SR20 position holders which I expect to be the case because of higher margins for them. However, I don’t believe this is the way to treat the original customers that took the RISK to get Cirrus to where it is today.

I’ve seen their financial prospectus they sent seeking corporate investors and it includes information on the future developement of the company that is not being shared with the average position holder. It Is A Good Plan! They should stick to it.

Will not be updating because benefits do not warrant additional cost in my opinion and my opinion is based on 25+ years in business and general aviation. Also feel Cirrus is only pushing the SR22 before it’s ready only to compete with the Columbia.

I do hope Cirrus design reads this every day and reflects back on what the Commander Owners web site did to unite the owners in a successful class action suite against Commander Aircraft several years ago.

Name withheld for fear of having my position delivery date or final price adjusted for expressing my feelings.

7

Great thinking!!!; Cirrus could have let us know by letter and allowed at least thirty 30 days (which works better under law)

Some of us needed explanation and reasonable time to work with this decsiion. Also, seems Cirrus will get back uncontracted 22 options even tho we they held our monies and with the abruptness, took away the opportunity to sell our options, a position that comes with the purchase of anything. We expect this from some car dealers?

received the FedEx to upgrade to SR22 although I said I didn’t want one. Contract is so poorly prepared that it doesn’t even state which configuration I would have received.

This company has a lot to learn about contract preparations. For example, I know of a position holder that is one number greater than mine and has a delivery date that is one month earlier???

Regarding Ian Bently’s comment on the number of contracts that were going out is probably inflated to make you feel more pressure to jump into something than the company is already putting on you with the resopnd by 10/2 & 10/16 dates.

My contract also indicated that upgrade delivery date would be several months earlier than original delivery date???

It will be VERY unsettling to learn that Cirrus is pushing delivers of the SR22 ahead of original SR20 position holders which I expect to be the case because of higher margins for them. However, I don’t believe this is the way to treat the original customers that took the RISK to get Cirrus to where it is today.

I’ve seen their financial prospectus they sent seeking corporate investors and it includes information on the future developement of the company that is not being shared with the average position holder. It Is A Good Plan! They should stick to it.

Will not be updating because benefits do not warrant additional cost in my opinion and my opinion is based on 25+ years in business and general aviation. Also feel Cirrus is only pushing the SR22 before it’s ready only to compete with the Columbia.

I do hope Cirrus design reads this every day and reflects back on what the Commander Owners web site did to unite the owners in a successful class action suite against Commander Aircraft several years ago.

Name withheld for fear of having my position delivery date or final price adjusted for expressing my feelings.

8

It will be VERY unsettling to learn that Cirrus is pushing delivers of the SR22 ahead of original SR20 position holders which I expect to be the case because of higher margins for them.

Actually, the real reason is rather less sinister; Cirrus will be running two production lines, one devoted to SR20 and one devoted to SR22. Since they expect to be selling fewer SR22’s but production rates of the two planes will (initially) be equal, they will get through the SR22 order book faster. I would guess that down the track they will add a second SR20 production line so they will then be building twice as many SR20’s as SR22’s. How far this goes depends on how many planes they can sell.

Regarding contracts and other issues; Cirrus have made some boo-boos in the past, and I agree that this current upgrade process could have been handled better, but this is largely due to the fac that they are breaking new ground. There is evidence that they do learn from their mistakes. I don’t think that posting on this forum (and yes, Cirrus do read it regularly) is likely to have adverse consequences, but I would also encourage you to take up any issues you have about the process directly with Cirrus. They will listen - though they will not necessarily do what you want.

One thing that’s become clear to me about Cirrus Design is that they are very focused, and have very clear boundaries on what they will do and what they won’t. This causes frustration at times (I’ve experienced it) but in the long run will help ensure that Cirrus Design is a viable, profitable company which in turn will ensure that your purchase maintains its value. Too many startups make the mistake of not being able to say “no”. CD can and do say no, and appear to be fully prepared to weather short-term criticism to fulfil long-term goals.

9

Also received the FedEx to upgrade to SR22 although I said I didn’t want one. Contract is so poorly prepared that it doesn’t even state which configuration I would have received.

I think this was very nice of Cirrus to give you the opportunity just in case you did change your mind. If you were not so negative you would have read that the first 100 would be “B” and if you wanted an “A” your would come after number 100.

This company has a lot to learn about contract preparations. For example, I know of a position holder that is one number greater than mine and has a delivery date that is one month earlier???

I have made mistakes in the past and unfortunately will do some in the future too, but will gladdly correct them if someone will point them out to me. I am sure Cirrus would do the same.

Regarding Ian Bently’s comment on the number of contracts that were going out is probably inflated to make you feel more pressure to jump into something than the company is already putting on you with the resopnd by 10/2 & 10/16 dates.

I spoken to Ian at OSH and thought he was a nice person speaking from the heart and not a crook. Until proven otherwise I believe him. I think you will notice the caliber of people working for Cirrus is top notch. This is the way I like it.

My contract also indicated that upgrade delivery date would be several months earlier than original delivery date???

This is too simple to explain. You must know why…

It will be VERY unsettling to learn that Cirrus is pushing delivers of the SR22 ahead of original SR20 position holders which I expect to be the case because of higher margins for them. However, I don’t believe this is the way to treat the original customers that took the RISK to get Cirrus to where it is today.

I’m an original SR20 “risk as you called it” and I think the way they are handling is fair, I can’t not think of any other way, besides stopping the SR22 line so all the SR20 position holders ahead get theirs, I don’t think this would be fair for Cirrus.

I’ve seen their financial prospectus they sent seeking corporate investors and it includes information on the future developement of the company that is not being shared with the average position holder. It Is A Good Plan! They should stick to it.

I am an investor, and we have to have a flexible mind. We have to be that way when we are starting new things, companies wont stay in business if they don’t adjust as necessary.

Will not be updating because benefits do not warrant additional cost in my opinion and my opinion is based on 25+ years in business and general aviation. Also feel Cirrus is only pushing the SR22 before it’s ready only to compete with the Columbia.

Different strokes for different folks, this is why the world goes around. I am happy that the SR20 will be a great airplane for you, I would be very happy with the SR20 also, but I have my reasons. I feel that Cirrus is doing “not pushing” just like any other company would. I actually see much less ads then other companies, this is only because they don’t need too. The happy customers and their product flying around are doing a fine job advertising at no cost. This may be one of the 9999 ways that they can offer such a good price for the product.

I do hope Cirrus design reads this every day and reflects back on what the Commander Owners web site did to unite the owners in a successful class action suite against Commander Aircraft several years ago.

It is sad.

Name withheld for fear of having my position delivery date or final price adjusted for expressing my feelings.

Please don’t take this the wrong way, but I just hope you were having a bad day. I only expressed my opinion in the items you have stated. My dealing with Cirrus have been very little, but everyone have been very professional and they even return calls. I can’t ask for more. Have a great Cirrus day.

Woor

PS You should call and express your feelings, so you can hear the other side.

10

Also received the FedEx to upgrade to SR22 although I said I didn’t want one. Contract is so poorly prepared that it doesn’t even state which configuration I would have received.

You would be the first guy to complain if you did not get a package!

This company has a lot to learn about contract preparations. For example, I know of a position holder that is one number greater than mine and has a delivery date that is one month earlier???

Don’t assume you know it all!I know a guy who has a contract number 75 spots ahead of me and he is getting his plane 5 months after me. He requested the move.

Regarding Ian Bently’s comment on the number of contracts that were going out is probably inflated to make you feel more pressure to jump into something than the company is already putting on you with the resopnd by 10/2 & 10/16 dates.

Pretty negative outlook. All my dealings with Ian and Cirrus have been great. He has nothing to gain by “inflating the numbers” Oh buy the way I have had 223,000 dealings plus another 30,000 dealings on the 22, so I think I can speak for the companys track record

My contract also indicated that upgrade delivery date would be several months earlier than original delivery date???

Let me get this straight, we bitch because we are not getting planes now we bitch when we have the chance to get a plane early.

It will be VERY unsettling to learn that Cirrus is pushing delivers of the SR22 ahead of original SR20 position holders which I expect to be the case because of higher margins for them. However, I don’t believe this is the way to treat the original customers that took the RISK to get Cirrus to where it is today.

After going to the factory put your mind at ease on the 22 in front of the 20’s. How about this headline “Cirrus goes broke because had to make website poster happy with lower margin plane” If Cirrus needs to put out 22’s to make money so be it. If thats what it takes for them to be around in 20 years to support my aircraft.

Lets not be short sited.

I’ve seen their financial prospectus they sent seeking corporate investors and it includes information on the future developement of the company that is not being shared with the average position holder. It Is A Good Plan! They should stick to it.

We agree on something!

Will not be updating because benefits do not warrant additional cost in my opinion and my opinion is based on 25+ years in business and general aviation. Also feel Cirrus is only pushing the SR22 before it’s ready only to compete with the Columbia.

opinions are like , well you know! I will be selling my 20 to buy a 22 because thats what I want to do! I only have 17 years flying and in business.

I do hope Cirrus design reads this every day and reflects back on what the Commander Owners web site did to unite the owners in a successful class action suite against Commander Aircraft several years ago.

All companys have to deal with bad apples, lets hope your not a bad seed.This is one owner who will be on the side of Cirrus.

Name withheld for fear of having my position delivery date or final price adjusted for expressing my feelings.

This is the new millienium, have some balls!
This could have been a lot more informative from someone who has taken delv of a plane. So when you get a spar and post your name with your concerns we can have a constructive posting I think this reply is appropriate for a “name withheld posting”>

11

Well said Clyde…

Cheers,

Woor

It will be VERY unsettling to learn that Cirrus is pushing delivers of the SR22 ahead of original SR20 position holders which I expect to be the case because of higher margins for them.

Actually, the real reason is rather less sinister; Cirrus will be running two production lines, one devoted to SR20 and one devoted to SR22. Since they expect to be selling fewer SR22’s but production rates of the two planes will (initially) be equal, they will get through the SR22 order book faster. I would guess that down the track they will add a second SR20 production line so they will then be building twice as many SR20’s as SR22’s. How far this goes depends on how many planes they can sell.

Regarding contracts and other issues; Cirrus have made some boo-boos in the past, and I agree that this current upgrade process could have been handled better, but this is largely due to the fac that they are breaking new ground. There is evidence that they do learn from their mistakes. I don’t think that posting on this forum (and yes, Cirrus do read it regularly) is likely to have adverse consequences, but I would also encourage you to take up any issues you have about the process directly with Cirrus. They will listen - though they will not necessarily do what you want.

One thing that’s become clear to me about Cirrus Design is that they are very focused, and have very clear boundaries on what they will do and what they won’t. This causes frustration at times (I’ve experienced it) but in the long run will help ensure that Cirrus Design is a viable, profitable company which in turn will ensure that your purchase maintains its value. Too many startups make the mistake of not being able to say “no”. CD can and do say no, and appear to be fully prepared to weather short-term criticism to fulfil long-term goals.

12

Well said Ed,

Concur 101%

Woor

Also received the FedEx to upgrade to SR22 although I said I didn’t want one. Contract is so poorly prepared that it doesn’t even state which configuration I would have received.

You would be the first guy to complain if you did not get a package!

This company has a lot to learn about contract preparations. For example, I know of a position holder that is one number greater than mine and has a delivery date that is one month earlier???

Don’t assume you know it all!I know a guy who has a contract number 75 spots ahead of me and he is getting his plane 5 months after me. He requested the move.

Regarding Ian Bently’s comment on the number of contracts that were going out is probably inflated to make you feel more pressure to jump into something than the company is already putting on you with the resopnd by 10/2 & 10/16 dates.

Pretty negative outlook. All my dealings with Ian and Cirrus have been great. He has nothing to gain by “inflating the numbers” Oh buy the way I have had 223,000 dealings plus another 30,000 dealings on the 22, so I think I can speak for the companys track record

My contract also indicated that upgrade delivery date would be several months earlier than original delivery date???

Let me get this straight, we bitch because we are not getting planes now we bitch when we have the chance to get a plane early.

It will be VERY unsettling to learn that Cirrus is pushing delivers of the SR22 ahead of original SR20 position holders which I expect to be the case because of higher margins for them. However, I don’t believe this is the way to treat the original customers that took the RISK to get Cirrus to where it is today.

After going to the factory put your mind at ease on the 22 in front of the 20’s. How about this headline “Cirrus goes broke because had to make website poster happy with lower margin plane” If Cirrus needs to put out 22’s to make money so be it. If thats what it takes for them to be around in 20 years to support my aircraft.

Lets not be short sited.

I’ve seen their financial prospectus they sent seeking corporate investors and it includes information on the future developement of the company that is not being shared with the average position holder. It Is A Good Plan! They should stick to it.

We agree on something!

Will not be updating because benefits do not warrant additional cost in my opinion and my opinion is based on 25+ years in business and general aviation. Also feel Cirrus is only pushing the SR22 before it’s ready only to compete with the Columbia.

opinions are like , well you know! I will be selling my 20 to buy a 22 because thats what I want to do! I only have 17 years flying and in business.

I do hope Cirrus design reads this every day and reflects back on what the Commander Owners web site did to unite the owners in a successful class action suite against Commander Aircraft several years ago.

All companys have to deal with bad apples, lets hope your not a bad seed.This is one owner who will be on the side of Cirrus.

Name withheld for fear of having my position delivery date or final price adjusted for expressing my feelings.

This is the new millienium, have some balls!
This could have been a lot more informative from someone who has taken delv of a plane. So when you get a spar and post your name with your concerns we can have a constructive posting I think this reply is appropriate for a “name withheld posting”>