At the risk of starting trouble (which I do very well) and capitalizing on Marty’s race, let us compare and contrast a similar question. For your average 3 hr trip, what is the actual arrival time difference between the SR20 and SR22 given a 7000 ft cruise. This is a HOBBS time question, from engine start to shut down assuming 10 min for taxi and runup, and then to engine shut down.
And the last part of the analysis . . . at what actual cost differential for this trip.
Now let’s have the 20’s and 22’s duke it out
Maybe you should use a distance. Don
For it to be a “average” trip you would need a Piper…Ed
I smell a search for rationale so “the Boss” will let you trade up. BTW, buy a used '22 now and the premium is much less.
I agree with Don.
From my experience, both planes should finish a 3-hour flight at about the same time.
I’m always glad to share my expertise!
hehe…what color was George Washingtons white horse? Who’s burried in Grant’s tomb?
You guys are just too quick. I can’t get anything by you’s guys.
OK: Lets try the same senario except instead of a 3 hr trip, lets make it a 500 mile trip. Who gets there first and dont forget to factor in ground time. What is the time saved, and how much did that savings in time cost.
P.S. The answer to the question of; Who is buried in Grant’s tomb, is Grant & his wife too.
In reply to:
For it to be a “average” trip you would need a Piper…
Or a Cessna, with one of those Garmin G1000 setups. Then, you could see how far behind the SR22 you are in more ways than you ever imagined…[:)]
OK, seriously, I have wondered how the SR22 running LOP compares to the SR20 running ROP with respect to time enroute and fuel burn for a 500 mile trip. Has anybody ever run that comparison?
OK Dennis
Me and You TMB Jan 2, 2004
Pretty Girl in a Bikini with Green flag (or maybe a Natalie Wood lookalike)
Parallel take off
Destination Hilton Head
I’ll give you a 20 Minute handicap
Loser buys Lunch
Trip
In reply to:
Pretty Girl in a Bikini with Green flag
I like the pretty girl idea, but forget the flag she flys with me and then I don’t care who wins. In fact, you go ahead and I will stay on the ground with her.
Actually, my proposition and analysis wasn’t a race. It was a “race at what cost” analysis
For Example, When we went from Miami to Atlanta, you would have gotten there about 20 min faster, but given the operating costs, what does the trip in the 22 cost vs the cost of the trip in a 20 and don’t forget to factor in the “real cost” and not just the operating cost. Ex. some portion of the additional 80 to 100k should be factored into the trip.
In the alternative even if you consistantly run LOP, (which it seems that all 22 jocks live for) you are still burning more gas for a similar air speed and spent a bunch more for the aircraft in order to do it.
In the end, the proposition becomes a “value” issue and not just a straight number. Value in part, is more personal, but still does have firm numbers attached to it.
In reply to:
In the alternative even if you consistantly run LOP, (which it seems that all 22 jocks live for) you are still burning more gas for a similar air speed and spent a bunch more for the aircraft in order to do it.
I’m not sure that’s the case. I just downloaded the SR20 POH. Looking at Cruise Performance @ 10,000’, if the book figures can be believed the SR20 can do 155k @ 11.2 gph, best power. I often bring my SR22 back to about 11.4 gph at that altitude, and get closer to 165-170k at that power setting.
It could be that the big IO-550 is kinda loafing at that setting, where the IO-360 is closer to max power.
Also, the SR20 takes about 17 minutes to climb to 10k, the 22 does it in about 10 minutes.
When I flew in a demo SR22 to Panama City, the demo pilot used best power, and I recall cringing at the 19 gph or so we were burning. This was about twice what my Tiger burned.
As I’ve said before, my SR22 actually uses LESS fuel than my Tiger did on my typical S FL/N GA 600 nm trip, i.e.
Tiger - 4.7 hours @ 9 gph = 42.3 gals
SR22 - 3.4 hours @ 11.4 gph = 38.7 gals
Less fuel, and I get there more than an hour sooner! Plus, with 50 gals usable in the Tiger, i often had to make a fuel stop to be safe, which eats up a LOT of time.
I’m also getting addicted to numbers like those below, on my descent from 13,500 into Chapel Hill a couple weeks ago (albeit with an almost 50k tailwind):
I’m NOT putting the SR20 down! It’s a WONDERFUL airplane. It’s just that moving from my Tiger (0-360, 135+ kts) to an SR20 would have been an incremental increase in performance. The SR22 is more an “order of magnitude” increase.
BTW, I’m down here in S FL, and along with Trip would love to get together and do a comparo flight and compare numbers.
Well Ed and Trip; You are on for the contest, although there really isn’t a winner or looser, just a comparison.
My SR20 gets about 10.5 GPH at 157kts @10,000 ft
The problem with all the responses thus far are that they just look at “operating costs” vs performance. The real and substantive comparison is the cost of purchase and upkeep costs. It wouldn’t be fair to look at just operating costs v speed.
Factor in Annual, TBO, and cost of purchase which I believe is the bulk of the difference.
In short, Bang for the Buck.
Winner get the girl with the green flag.
In reply to:
In the alternative even if you consistently run LOP, (which it seems that all 22 jocks live for) you are still burning more gas for a similar air speed and spent a bunch more for the aircraft in order to do it.
I gotta second Fast Eddie’s comments.
I have flown my SR22 at 165 KTAS at 12.0 GPH or less. I don’t think there would be an appreciable difference in the SR20 and SR22 fuel consumption had I throttled back to 155- 160 KTAS, the top speed for the SR20s. I also had the occasion to fly in formation with my old 172 and I recall that down in the 110 KIAS range, and the '22’s fuel flows were slightly better than my Cessna’s.
One other benefit of the SR22, of course at the expense of some fuel, is that the SR22 climbs much faster enabling it to arrive at altitude sooner and get into cruise mode. The counter argument is that I suppose that few SR20 owners often choose to fly at 9,000’ - 12,000, whereas that is SOP for me.
In reply to:
Looking at Cruise Performance @ 10,000’, if the book figures can be believed the SR20 can do 155k @ 11.2 gph, best power. I often bring my SR22 back to about 11.4 gph at that altitude, and get closer to 165-170k at that power setting.
It could be that the big IO-550 is kinda loafing at that setting, where the IO-360 is closer to max power.
Actually it sounds like you’re comparing the SR20 ROP to the SR22 LOP.
You have every right to brag about your plane’s performance, but showing a picture of a 235 GS loses some of its luster in a 600FPM descent.
In reply to:
if the book figures can be believed the SR20 can do 155k @ 11.2 gph, best power. I often bring my SR22 back to about 11.4 gph at that altitude, and get closer to 165-170k at that power setting.
It could be that the big IO-550 is kinda loafing at that setting, where the IO-360 is closer to max power.
Nope, you’re just comparing LOP with ROP. Running the SR20 LOP you will see fuel burns of around 8.5gph and around 148KTAS. So for 75% of the fuel burn, you get 90% of the speed. I would imagine that if you pulled the IO-550 back to 8.5gph LOP you will see similar performance to the SR20.
Marty;
Unlike Trip & Eddie, I know I could beat you even in an SR20 if for no other reason than that I fly in a straight line.
So far, The SR20 has been set off against a Grumman Tiger and now a Cessna 172. By your own statement, your 22 gets about 12GPH @ 165 kts compared to approx 10GPH for 157kts. BUT STILL everyone is avoiding the fact that it cost 100K more in purchase price alone to get there, together with other related increased maint costs. Yes, the 22 climbs faster; acknowledged, and it gets an additional 7kts in exchange cost of 2GPH, but it also depreciates by bigger bucks and costs more to keep going.
I guess my overall point is the question of bragging rights for the 22 as against the 20 and at what cost.
PS and as a side note. My SC tells me that a 2 bladed prop is more efficient then a 3 bladed prop. Is that true?
If all you are interested in is cost per mile then compare your SR20 to a Hyundai Accent. Be sure to factor in the over $230K price difference (Accent costs the same as a Stormscope), insurance cost difference, tiedown, annuals, etc. I have never found anything about flying to be based on financial sanity. We do it because we want to even when we can’t afford it (as my negative cash flow attests to).
If your point is that the SR20 is often overlooked then I agree. It offers great value. The speed difference is not the reason to get a 22. The climb and useful load differences are more important. For many people these won’t be worth the price.
Dennis,
You’ve set up a VERY convoluted comparison. My Tiger actually appreciated by more than $30k in the time (11 years) I had it. While it will be some time before the depreciation on a new Cirrus bottoms out, history says it will, and we may be able to sell our birds for MORE than we paid for them. And it’s possible an SR22 may appreciate more than an SR20 (or not).
But then there’s inflation and the “opportunity cost” and/or interest on the money tied up in the plane.
As I said, it’s pretty complicated.
I’m one of those fellows who just wants to put gas in the plane and go. If I ever stopped and added up ALL the expenses and converted to an hourly cost, I’d probably just get depressed and possibly fly less.
Ignorance is Bliss!
Dennis: The SR22 is a great value when compared to almost any other GA plane with similar capabilities. The SR20 is a spectacular value even when compared to the SR22.
But comparing the cost of making a trip, then I would assert that the acquisition costs, depreciation opportunity costs are all totally irrelevant. We are comparing the wet cost of making the trip at similar speeds. If we wanted to bring in external factors, how about making that 500 NM trip with a cabin load of 750 lbs. I think the SR20 would have to make 2 trips, which would really blow the comparison out of the water
Additionally, if we were to compare the total ownership experience, then we would have to look at other forms of conveyance such as a train, rental car, or a chartered aircraft.
On a different matter, can you really get 157 KTAS on 10 GPH? I thought book was 160 at 11.2 GPH, with most owners complaining that tey can’t get 160 KTAS even at full power. An 11% savings in fuel for a 2% loss of airspeed at 10,000’ is pretty darn good.