Please bear with me here, I’ve taken a pretty good look through the guest areas of the site but hopefully you all will be willing to answer some questions for someone who lives in the middle of nowhere and hasn’t even had the opportunity to fly a Cirrus -
I’m a Wyoming-based pilot with about 1,300 hrs, instrument-rated, currently own a Cherokee 235. My plane needs are evolving quickly, and I’ve decided it’s time to upgrade to something faster with more modern avionics - and I’m trying to decide whether an SR22 would fit the bill.
Basically, my normal mission is to fly myself plus one possibly one other person and quite a bit of gear from Wyoming either to TX or to FL and down into the Caribbean, 3 or 4 times per year. Given the long distances, obviously speed’s an issue. I’ve narrowed down my choices to a TR182, an F33A with tip tanks/turbonormalizer, or an SR22.
The SR22 certainly fits the bill avionics-wise, but it’s a little shy on both full-fuel useful load and range (a 235 spoils you like that, though you give up interior room and speed). The big advantage is the ‘chute for long overwater flights, as well as the avionics and the fact that they’re practically new. The lack of a turbo hurts around these parts, but obviously helps maintenance issues and given the additional horsepower doesn’t seem to limit the plane much when flying in an area with MEA’s in excess of 14k’.
So, for those of you with experience in SR22s, I’d very much appreciate your input on the following:
Assuming operation LOP, what are the real-world figures for fuel burn/TAS at 10-15,000’ that I could expect? Is 1,000 nm range, with reserves, realistic? If so, at what TAS?
Is operating at 15,000’ realistic given time to climb there? What’s the real-world ROC at that level? I mean, I can fly my 235 there, but it flies like a marshmallow and takes forever to get there.
What would be a real-world full-fuel payload?
I’m fairly familiar with prebuys on spam cans, but don’t know what to look for in a 2002-2003 SR22. Can anyone point me to a thorough pre-buy checklist?
PFD’s look great, but in reading through postings here have been fairly failure-prone. Are they worth the extra $$, or more of a hassle if I’m willing to forego the gee-whiz factor?
The closest Cirrus-specific maintenance facility is about 300 miles from here. Would I regret that, or would it be a relative non-issue?
Any comments about maintenance on the Cirrus, vs other HPSE’s? What to watch out for etc?
I’m sure I’ll think of other questions, and will join COPA if I lean further towards the SR22 - but in the meantime, any help would be great.
I’ll get the ball rolling and start with the first two quesitons:
In reply to:
Assuming operation LOP, what are the real-world figures for fuel burn/TAS at 10-15,000’ that I could expect? Is 1,000 nm range, with reserves, realistic? If so, at what TAS?
I generally lean to 12 to 14 gph at those altitudes depending on the mission . Generally see 167 to 174 kts at those fuel burns.
Lean a little more and 1,000 miles might be possible. Figuring roughly, 81 gals at 11 gph would be an endurance of about 7.4 hours. At 165 kts that’s 1,215 miles. Of course there’s fuel burned to taxi and climb, but some of that is recovered in the descent. Of course, you have to be able to sit for 7 hours - I’d likely split up the flight into two parts.
In reply to:
Is operating at 15,000’ realistic given time to climb there? What’s the real-world ROC at that level? I mean, I can fly my 235 there, but it flies like a marshmallow and takes forever to get there?
15,000’ is easy. Maybe 20 minutes to get there in a cruise climb. Even at 17,000’ I still see about 400 fpm when light.
Food for thought: Here’s 17,500’, 163 kts at 9.3 gph. Only 9 gals had been burned in taxi/climb. Looks to me that I could still have flown over 7 hours and about 1,200 miles to empty tanks.
Turbos are nice to have higher up but you are correct that they normally have higher maint cost. My question would be are you flying high or using high alt airports? THe turbo is more important for the airport in my opinion.
I also think they are designing a turbo normalized system that can be installed to the cirrus for around 50k.
As far as the PFD goes they might be having a few problems right now but in the end I think they will get the bugs worked out. The real question you need to ask yourself is do you want to spend 400 for a new PFD plane or 210-250 for a good used non PFD plane? In the end they will fly the same and look just as good from the air but you will not be able to brag about your PFD to the airline pilots walking past the bird.
Do not let people lead you to believe that the cirrus is cheaper to fly because it has fixed gear, the insurance more than makes up for that. Fly the cirrus/other brand because that’s what you want to fly!!
Where are you based in WY? I am based in Sheridan and plan on buying a SR22 assuming the sale of my P-Baron. We share similar concerns regarding range, high altitude performance and flight over hostile terrain. Flights to the Carribean are on my “fantasies to do list”. Also have a deposit on the Diamond Twinstar w/Turbo Diesels and a deposit on my biggest fantasy…the Eclipse Jet. Turbo diesels seem unlikely in the near future because of a lack of a U.S. service network and some development issues. I am guessing the IO-360s (normally aspirated) version of the Twinstar will not provide any additional speed performance over the SR22 but should provide additional payload, plus I believe the cost to insure the Twinstar will be dramatic compared to the SR22. Engine redundancy vs. the “chute” makes for an interesting discussion and the “chute” option is very attractive.
Assuming operation LOP, what are the real-world figures for fuel burn/TAS at 10-15,000’ that I could expect? Is 1,000 nm range, with reserves, realistic? If so, at what TAS?
Is operating at 15,000’ realistic given time to climb there? What’s the real-world ROC at that level? I mean, I can fly my 235 there, but it flies like a marshmallow and takes forever to get there.
What would be a real-world full-fuel payload?
I’m fairly familiar with prebuys on spam cans, but don’t know what to look for in a 2002-2003 SR22. Can anyone point me to a thorough pre-buy checklist?
PFD’s look great, but in reading through postings here have been fairly failure-prone. Are they worth the extra $$, or more of a hassle if I’m willing to forego the gee-whiz factor?
The closest Cirrus-specific maintenance facility is about 300 miles from here. Would I regret that, or would it be a relative non-issue?
Any comments about maintenance on the Cirrus, vs other HPSE’s? What to watch out for etc?
Clay,
To answer your specific questions:
I’ve had my SR22 for almost 4 years. I run LOP (usually at less than full throttle, unlike many on these forums). I routinely burn about 13.5 GPH in the 10,000 foot range. That equates to 65% power (when lean of peak % HP for the IO550N is ((GPHx14.9)/310)x100. I will get about 168 KTAS at that flow and altitude.
At 15,000 feet fuel burn usually is in the 11 gph range - about 53% power. Of course ambient temp may change things a bit. A 1000 NM range is certainly reasonable with a tailwind. With a headwind you’re pushing it - especially if you want at least an hour’s fuel reserve. If your plane has engine monitoring you can have a constant readout of how much you need to get to your destination and how much you have remaining.
15,000 is realistic. I routinely fly from JAC to DPA (in Chicago) at 15,000 feet non stop. Given I’m departing from an airport that is already about 6500 feet, the time to climb is about 12 minutes. Again this will depend on ambient temperatures and weight (I’m usually with my wife and even with baggage we are 300+ pounds under gross). So yes, 15,000 is a reasonable altitude. Returning to (1) I have never made it from DPA to JAC nonstop.
Again, it varies with equipment but my useful load with full fuel is 648 pounds. When you subtract my weight and routine equipment and charts I can put in about 480 additional pounds of load. If the plane is equipped with TKS, built in oxygen (both nice to have)or other goodies the useful load obviously goes down. Life is full of tradeoffs.
4)In my opinion the best pre buy checklist is a through annual done by someone who has worked on several Cirrus aircraft. The mechanic should be chosen by the purchaser.
My plane is pre PFD. The PFD is neat but there have been some reliability issues. If you want the latest and greatest go for the PFD but you can probably save a bit with a pre PFD aircraft that is equipped with a MFD and a Sandel EHSI. My avionics are far superior to any previous airplane I’ve flown and have been reliable. Also, remember that the early 22s have essentially the same performance as the PFD ones. I can do anything with mine that a pilot can do with the PFD version. In theory the PFD ought to be more reliable but so far that has not proven to be the case. The G2 is said to be about 5 knots faster than the earlier aircraft. If you talk about a 1000 mile trip a G2 might shave 5 or 10 minutes off the total time. That’s how much of a difference 5 knots makes.
Not having a Cirrus Service Center nearby is a pain. All warranty work needs to be conducted by a SC and only a SC can get parts from Cirrus. I take my plane (it’s out of warranty) to a non Service Center because I trust the mechanic and have used him for 30+ years. He has no problems working on the plane but every time I need a part (usually to comply with a SB) we have to order it through a Service Center. In fact the Cirrus parts policy is the one thing I REALLY dislike about Cirrus.
There are several issues. The brakes are important. The nosewheel tension needs to be looked at regularly. There are problems with various connections. The air filter bracket and oil coolers tend to crack. Otherwise I think the issues are similar to other similar aircraft. Of course having fixed gear is a plus from a maintenance standpoint. Much of the service issues have dealt with electrical problems - flap relays, connections, MCU (Master Control Unit) failures etc.
Hope that helps with your decision making process.
Although I really like our SR22 with PFD/deicing etc the F33A with a turbonormalizer and tip tanks woudl be well worth considering in light of your long range mission profile, location and pssoble use of softer surface strips.
No question that a T/N F33A is much faster than a SR22 and with the tip tanks has greater range.
However, the SR22 has several safety benefits that make a differnce that speed might no be able to compensate for.
The parachute is a HUGE benefit especially in the mountains and over water. TKS de-icing (I think available in the Bo also via STC?) is another big possible life saver IF you have good judgement. The Skywatch (although I’d go for the RYAD TCAD instead in the bonanza) is also more valuable than you would initally think.
PFD/MFD? Nice, impressive as all heck but I wouldn’t have a problem going back to a steam gauge airplane with an HSI and the MX20.
Just a few more thoughts to confuse yourself further…
Those more knowledgable about the plane may want to reply here…but didn’t they change the early SR22 engine mounts from a four-point to a six-point, thereby solving some vibration issues…he may want to take that into consideration in looking at used SR22’s
Over the Carribean: That sounds like a great reason to go with a CAPS airplane
Here’s a little feedback from someone that used to be waiting for the plane and now has one.
Before delivery, I was concerned with reliability. I would read posts and get the idea that the plane would spend more time in the shop than in the air. Our plane has performed wonderfully with a few minor issues that we had repaired at a convenient time. Problems generate posts and I believe this generates a notion there are more porblems with the planes than there are.
Our closest service center is 225 miles away in San Antonio and it, so far, has not been a problem to get the plane there for service.
One issue I am aware of on earlier planes is the door design. One of my instructors flies an older model and I know he sometimes has trouble closing the door adequately.
All factors considered I really enjoy flying my SR 22. Flew to my ranch last weekend. Turned on my iPOD and listened to beautiful music all the way while talking to controllers from time to time.
Thank you all for the excellent feedback - I don’t fly often out of short, high airports, though I do spend some time every year at the Idaho mountain strips. I’m willing to trade some short-field performance for long-distance capability in that regard. Generally, I’m flying high, but not taking off at more than maybe 10,000 DA in the summer (and that’d be at long strips like Laramie or even Casper on a hot day).
So it looks as if good LOP range is possible, even given the limited fuel. And the turbonormalizer would be a great upgrade, at least if someone got an STC for tip tanks or an easily removable ferry tank!
People seem to say that the major part of a prepurchase is an avionics check, to make sure all the geegaws work - expensive to fix if they don’t. The engine/prop would require normal prepurchase inspection/log check just like anything else. Is there anything specific in the airframe to watch out for?
Are any of the glass-cockpit versions out of warranty yet, and does anyone have any idea about repair costs if one of the displays goes TU?
And the turbonormalizer would be a great upgrade, at least if someone got an STC for tip tanks or an easily removable ferry tank!
GAMI/Tornado Alley is working on this but no date has been promised. I wouldn’t want you to have false expectations only to not have the turbo ready for longer than you expected.
In reply to:
Is there anything specific in the airframe to watch out for? …does anyone have any idea about repair costs if one of the displays goes TU?
I suggest you join the private discussion forums and see what real experiences other owners have had. In general I don’t recall too many airframe issues. The search tool of the archives is really valuable. As is being discussed on the forums now, Avidyne charges a flat rate of $1000 to start looking at a repair.
Good luck! Most owners, including me, are generally very happy.
Thank you all for the excellent feedback - I don’t fly often out of short, high airports, though I do spend some time every year at the Idaho mountain strips. I’m willing to trade some short-field performance for long-distance capability in that regard.
Clay,
You didn’t ask specifically, but I’ll add that the Cirrus is not well suited for mountain strips in my opinion - you can remove the wheel pants but it’s the 8" of prop ground clearance that’s the deal-killer for me…I keep it on pavement. I’ve flown my previous aircraft (182) into Idaho strips but wouldn’t do it in my SR22. One gopher hole could ruin your whole day.
I was recently at an airshow and there was an eclipse mock up, but not the real thing. You could sit in it and it had all of the instruments, etc. I think the problem with it is range if you have any sort of payload or passengers. I also think that while it has a great entry price relative to other jet options that you are going to get nailed on the operating costs. While a TBM or Pilatus is more expensive they are far more efficient to operate.
If speed and range are a real factor as well as operating costs then I think you need to look at the SR22 or a Lancair 400. As a Cirrus owner I hope that they come up with something that competes with the 400, but as far as cost and what it can do I don’t think that the 400 is probably the best option at the moment for the best combination of speed, range and the ability to get above most weather.
I’ve had my SR22 for almost 4 years. I run LOP (usually at less than full throttle, unlike many on these forums). I routinely burn about 13.5 GPH in the 10,000 foot range. That equates to 65% power (when lean of peak % HP for the IO550N is ((GPHx14.9)/310)x100. I will get about 168 KTAS at that flow and altitude.
At 15,000 feet fuel burn usually is in the 11 gph range - about 53% power. Of course ambient temp may change things a bit. A 1000 NM range is certainly reasonable with a tailwind. With a headwind you’re pushing it - especially if you want at least an hour’s fuel reserve. If your plane has engine monitoring you can have a constant readout of how much you need to get to your destination and how much you have remaining.
15,000 is realistic. I routinely fly from JAC to DPA (in Chicago) at 15,000 feet non stop. Given I’m departing from an airport that is already about 6500 feet, the time to climb is about 12 minutes. Again this will depend on ambient temperatures and weight (I’m usually with my wife and even with baggage we are 300+ pounds under gross). So yes, 15,000 is a reasonable altitude. Returning to (1) I have never made it from DPA to JAC nonstop.
Again, it varies with equipment but my useful load with full fuel is 648 pounds. When you subtract my weight and routine equipment and charts I can put in about 480 additional pounds of load. If the plane is equipped with TKS, built in oxygen (both nice to have)or other goodies the useful load obviously goes down. Life is full of tradeoffs.
4)In my opinion the best pre buy checklist is a through annual done by someone who has worked on several Cirrus aircraft. The mechanic should be chosen by the purchaser.
My plane is pre PFD. The PFD is neat but there have been some reliability issues. If you want the latest and greatest go for the PFD but you can probably save a bit with a pre PFD aircraft that is equipped with a MFD and a Sandel EHSI. My avionics are far superior to any previous airplane I’ve flown and have been reliable. Also, remember that the early 22s have essentially the same performance as the PFD ones. I can do anything with mine that a pilot can do with the PFD version. In theory the PFD ought to be more reliable but so far that has not proven to be the case. The G2 is said to be about 5 knots faster than the earlier aircraft. If you talk about a 1000 mile trip a G2 might shave 5 or 10 minutes off the total time. That’s how much of a difference 5 knots makes.
Not having a Cirrus Service Center nearby is a pain. All warranty work needs to be conducted by a SC and only a SC can get parts from Cirrus. I take my plane (it’s out of warranty) to a non Service Center because I trust the mechanic and have used him for 30+ years. He has no problems working on the plane but every time I need a part (usually to comply with a SB) we have to order it through a Service Center. In fact the Cirrus parts policy is the one thing I REALLY dislike about Cirrus.
There are several issues. The brakes are important. The nosewheel tension needs to be looked at regularly. There are problems with various connections. The air filter bracket and oil coolers tend to crack. Otherwise I think the issues are similar to other similar aircraft. Of course having fixed gear is a plus from a maintenance standpoint. Much of the service issues have dealt with electrical problems - flap relays, connections, MCU (Master Control Unit) failures etc.
Hope that helps with your decision making process.
Be careful about putting too much credence into the postings, there is a dispproportionate number of folks on the forum that either have more than their fair share of problems or have unrealistic expectations. Most of us fly the PFD with no issues. The forum can also be misleading because when we have a small problem, often it is posted for imput from other members.
Clay,
You didn’t ask specifically, but I’ll add that the Cirrus is not well suited for mountain strips in my opinion - you can remove the wheel pants but it’s the 8" of prop ground clearance that’s the deal-killer for me…I keep it on pavement. I’ve flown my previous aircraft (182) into Idaho strips but wouldn’t do it in my SR22. One gopher hole could ruin your whole day.
Regards,
Tim
One issue I am aware of on earlier planes is the door design. One of my instructors flies an older model and I know he sometimes has trouble closing the door adequately.
John,
This is a problem that’s easy to fix - in the hands of the right mechanic. It’s also a fine example of the distorting effect of the forum “lens” that you describe so well.
I’m on my second “older” Cirrus - that is, with the ‘G1’ style of door. Both airplanes exhibited the “hard to close” doors on delivery, and in both cases, between an A&P who knew how to adjust them, and a chance for them to “bed in”, they worked flawlessly and consistently within a few months.
So… the older doors have the “rep” of being tough to close… the G2 doors have the “rep” of being easier to close, but popping open in flight. Both should be adjusted better at the factory, but both are fine after some TLC by someone good.
You don’t read people posting about how their doors close well… only people with problems post. Again, the door problems are real, but transient if attended to.
