Recently, it appears that several users have become upset of over the tone or lack of sensitivity of posts on these forums. In my opinion, posts are rarely meant as insulting or intentionally insensitive to others. Lively conversation is interesting to many and stimulates introspective thought, which arguably makes us better pilots. In any event, it is usually entertaining. The Public Forum tends to be the home of more lively conversations while the Members Forum seems to attract more technically oriented threads.
These forums perform valuable communication at three different levels:
Person-to-person: As in, My framig isn’t working. Does anyone know how to fix it?
Individual-to-everyone: As in, Hey listen, My framig broke because I failed to rotate it properly. Don’t make this mistake: it cost me a bijillion dollars to fix.
General Open Conversations and Announcements; As in I just test flew the Eclipse. Here’s a comparison to the Cirrus SR20. OR, What a great trip to Antarctica! OR, We’re gonna have a fly-in in Death Valley on July 4th. All are invited. OR Is it better to run rich of peak or LOP?
None of these ‘conversations’ are intentionally aimed at being insensitive or inflammatory, (well, maybe a very few are [;)]). With anything as complex as a modern airplane and the systems within, there are going to be problems and failures. The key is how the mechanics and manufacturers handle the repairs.
Also remember, the early buyers really are beta testers. The FAA is concerned with safety, not cost of repair or frequency. There will be more problems on earlier units, and most manufacturers incorporate upgrades in later models. If Cirrus and the other manufacturers spent the time and effort that auto manufacturers have in debugging their products, none of us could afford them, or at least wouldn’t want to. This isn’t to say that I support this philosophy, I just recognize it. When Cirrus sells 1 million airplanes a year, they will cost $100,000 and be a lot more reliable.
Most of the time, problems should and are going to be fixed in a reasonable amount of time. However, there will always be difficult, persistent problems which seem to defy easy cures. I’ve had these types of experiences with my wife’s Mercedes, a friend’s boat and even in a Cherokee 6. I don’t think anyone revels in the hardships and frustrations of others, but pronouncements of good things are not intended as salt to be rubbed in the wounds of others and really shouldn’t be taken that way.
If you do have problems, I strongly recommend that you deal with them through your A&P, Cirrus Design and the specific manufacturer first. Posting a poison pen letter on the forums may be instantaneously satisfying, but you may regret it later. Not that we aren’t interested, but your results might be better if you handle it through normal channels before trying to resolve it on the internet. You probably already know this but for those who don’t - most of the companies that we deal with avidly read these forums. The person or company you are flaming may be the one you have to deal with tomorrow.
I’ll get off my soapbox now. Here’s $0.02 for the kitty.
If you do have problems, I strongly recommend that you deal with them through your A&P, Cirrus Design and the specific manufacturer first. Posting a poison pen letter on the forums may be instantaneously satisfying, but you may regret it later. Not that we aren’t interested, but your results might be better if you handle it through normal channels before trying to resolve it on the internet.
It also allows the company to say no one else has that problem. I recommend the opposite. I suggest COPA create a database of all problems from everyone. That way they can see patterns and tell others what to look out for when they have their planes serviced. The companies almost certainly know where there persistent problems are and I think buyers also have a right to know.
Very well said! Some messages on this Forum seem to be complaints made for the sake of complaining, and I’m glad that you put these messages in perspective.
“It also allows the company to say no one else has that problem. I recommend the opposite. I suggest COPA create a database of all problems from everyone. That way they can see patterns and tell others what to look out for when they have their planes serviced. The companies almost certainly know where there persistent problems are and I think buyers also have a right to know.”
Art: Everyone has the opportunity to post their squawks on the Forums and clearly there is benefit to sharing specific problems and, more importantly, the resolutions. I am a big fan of not recreating the wheel. If one member can benefit from another’s troubles, while a small consolation for the member who had to work through them, it is a big help overall. Also, if any of the companies are being less than honest, we should call them on it. If this site help, then great.
However, I stand behind my advice in that paragraph about addressing problems with your A & P, Cirrus and the manufacturer(s) first.While not aimed at you, to post squawk about how bad something is without trying to correct it with Cirrus and or the manufacturer first is just not responsible, nor fair. Nothing in this world is perfect, and we all make mistakes, companies included. It is how the complaints and errors are addressed that counts.
to post squawk about how bad something is without trying to correct it with Cirrus and or the manufacturer first is just not responsible, nor fair.
Repetitive failures, even if cheerfully fixed by the manufacturer are still problems, especially in airplanes. Some people have complained that posting of complaints is no representative of the fleet, so I once again propose that COPA develop a database which will track all repairs to the fleet so people can reach their own conclusion about whether a problem exists.
Being a new owner (1st power plane after 2 sailplanes) I’m blown away by 2 things.
1- The amount and sophistication of the avionics and instrumentation in the CD fleet.
2- The responsiveness and responsibility shown by the manufacturer.
I hope they never get to 1 million planes at $100K apiece. How many folks have been bowled over by the service department at your local car dealer.
These are pretty complex airborne systems that are still getting the bugs worked out. It’s easy to attribute all the negative posts to the “squeaky wheels”. I think it’s healthy to have a forum to share problems and experiences. The good, the bad and the ugly feedback make me a better pilot and owner.
I agree that personal attacks have no place here but let’s keep the open discussion rolling! It’s one of my best sources of learning… a life long pursuit.
To change the subject just a bit. Certainly, manufacturers don’t just provide warranty repairs out of the goodness of their hearts or for free.
The cost of the replacement relays, autopilots, HSI’s, broken wheel pants, tank seals, etc., etc., etc. are reflected in the sales prices of the various components and ultimately the airplane as a whole. Just think how much cheaper the airplane would be if various manufacturers didn’t have to keep such a large reserve for warranty work. Eliminate that and fix the ridiculous tort liability cost in our law suit-minded society and they’d almost give the darn things away.