Sources say the preliminary guestimate for the Avidyne upgrade is $5500.00 with a first quarter 02 delivery,which in airplane talk means the 2nd or 3rd quarter. So all of you that are taking delivery in the next few months , me included,plan on flying with a big blank cover on your dash for a while. However I do have a Craig 8 track tape player which I think will fit comfortably in the space that I can sell real cheap. If you already have the famous Arnav expect to pay $15,000 to change over.
The usual Cirrus rip-off. You pay for a contract on a plane that includes a large display - with checklists and coming soon engine monitoring. So Cirrus change suppliers and the customer ends up funding Cirrus development costs and gets less functionality. Okay so the display is nicer but the updates are 10x the cost. I would rather have a chart for the detail and not have to pay Cirrus’s costs of not delivering what they promised !!!
What does Avidyne give us a step back in functionality $5.5K extra cost and lots more to pay for map updates, other than that ???
Dan: Despite all of the grumbling expressed in this thread - anonymous #1 and #3 - I see the Avidyne EX5000 as a geat improvement.
In term of cost: my earlier configuration was a SR22B with Stormscope $9500 and Skywatch $21,500. These options total $31,000.
The new configuration is: Avidyne estimate $5,500 upgrade, Garmin GTX 330 estimate $3,000 upgrade and Avidyne WX receiver estimate cost $2,500 plus $30/ mo. WX subscription. These options total $11,000.
The old configuration gives active collision avoidance data everywhere. The new configuration gives collision avoidance data in most of the busiest airspace in the country.
The old configuration gives spheric data plotted on the moving map. The new configuration gives color coded NEXRAD data plotted on the moving map.
There may be additional weather products available on the Avidyne, ceiling/vis, temperature and dew point, surface winds, color coded symbols for VFR, MVFR, IFR or LIFR and the like depending on how the WX display is configured and what subscription option is selected.
The Avidyne WX system is already flying. It is satellite based and not depending of a series of ground stations. There are about 9 (as I recall) communication vendors for the transfer of the WX data. Even if nothing else is provided, the NEXRAD is probably a better guide to safe flight than the Stormscope data.
Besides, I still have that $20,000 for the supposedly burdensome cost of Sectionals, WACs, TAC’s and NOAA Low Altitude Enroute Charts.
Has anyone looked at Avidyne to see what the chart updates cost? A one-time North
American Jeppesen NavData upgrade costs $200. This does not strike me as excessive.
The Avidyne is not the primary source of IFR information, and it is in the same status as the Sandel as regards updates. The updates are within the pilot’s discretion. The
Garmins are different. The 430’s are required to be current for IFR flight. In fact, the start up screen of the Garmin 430 shows the effective dates of the database prior to the unit starting, and requires an acknowledgement before continuing with the start up sequence. Fortunately, Garmin offers discounts on the GNS 430 data for a dual install and for getting the data on the internet.
I think I have equal or better flight safety at $20,000 less. I’m not complaining.
I realize this is highly preliminary, but $5,500 does seem like to much for the Avidyne. I don’t think the retail price difference between the ARNAV and Avidyne is $5,500, so why would it cost that much more for the Avidyne? Avidyne lists their unit for $12,995. If you deduct $5,500 for the upgrade from ARNAV, that would mean the ARNAV retails for $7,495. (I don’t think so) I am not sure what the current list price of the ARNAV is, but it was $12,995 in March of 2000. ARNAV’s smaller unit lists for $7,995. I wonder how much credit I would get if they just left the big screen out and I had the Avidyne installed by my local avionics shop?
So, you turkey, DON’T CHOOSE THE AVIDYNE. Stick with Arnav. How the hell are you worse off than before?
…because Cirrus switch will kill Arnav’s development/support efforts so I will have no option but to switch to Avidyne. Oh $5.5K is alot of money to me !!!
So let me get this straight. Cirrus and others with really new designs are saviors of general aviation when they innovate and introduce a truly new aircraft design. But having innovated once, general aviation will now be better served if they stop innovating.
So no product improvement should occur lest the old and now less functional product lose support. Now I understand where Cessna finds customers.
Aircraft avionics have joined the computer depreciation curve.
People ask me how much they should spend on a computer. I tell them between $300 and $1000 per year, depending on how hot a box they like to have. Buying electronics isn’t a capital expense, its an operating expense.
Anyone want to hazard the annual cost of keeping a GA cockpit state of the art? I’d guess between $5000 and $15,000.
Of course we have should have innovation. But what I’m asking people to consider whether Cirrus should pass all its development costs on to contract holders. Of course there should be extra cost for increased functionality. (which there is very little) But it seems like they are passing on more than the additional capital cost of the new box - which suggests some R&D $'s are being passed on. So Cirrus made a brave call betting on Arnav but it turned out to be the wrong call - I don’t blame them for one moment its often impossible to work out who is going to be a winner in a tech race. But take some responsibility and absorb half the costs and pass the rest on.
Agree with the computer analogy.
The trick is to get a decent life cycle on the product and not jump every time a newer version becomes available.
I’ll run my “old” ARNAV until someone (Avidyne or its successor) offers a real step function increase in functionality. At the moment, the difference is mostly cosmetic in my opinion. Eventually it will be real. But, I suspect I’ll skip the next “generation” and save myself one round of upgrades.
Yes. FINALLY competition and progress in the airplane business are creating the same “problem” for customers that computer users have grown accustomed to for 20+ years.
Since the time the 8080-based computer gave way to the “modern” 80286 and then the mighty 80386, buyers have known that every purchase is a trade off. If you buy the best of today’s technology, you know that tomorrow or the next day there will be something cheaper, better – but if you keep waiting for the next, new product you never have anything to use.
I agree with the “skip a generation” purchasing policy. I’m glad to have had the Arnav (8080-equivalent) over the last year and will use it happily until some new system emerges that makes the Avidyne (the 80286) look outdated itself. This is a MUCH better problem to have than the GA situation of the last generation, stuck in the suspended animation of the vacuum-tube era.
At this point it isn’t clear to me how much, if any, of the extra cost of the Avidyne is an R&D pass along. In any case, companies that do not pass along R&D costs don’t stay in business or at least they they don’t do much more R&D. The price of every proprietary drug includes loads of R&D recovery and a lot of that went into things that never made it to market. Likewise, do you think Boeing eats its R&D costs. No way. Those costs are bundled into the price of the aircraft they sell and eventually they find their way into the prices of airline tickets. There is no free lunch. If you want innovation, somewhere along the line you are going to have to pay for it.
Maybe I am missing something here. What R & D does Cirrus have to start installing the Avidyne? All of the R & D was done by Avidyne. When I look at the costs of both the Avidyne non-radar system and the Arnav, the “street price” is comparable. So I agree somewhat with the above post that a $5,500 extra charge for an avidyne seems high unless they are talking about replacing an existing Arnav for that price. A new customer with a new plane should get the same price whether they order the Avidyne or the Arnav because the street price is the same.
You beat me to the post. I was going to ask the same question when I got back from lunch. The R&D costs were borne by Avidyne and are reflected in the 12,995 retail price. Cirrus’s cost should be limited to a little demo time. Either Cirrus is just sucking up extra profit, or more likely, they were getting a substantially better discount off of list price from Arnav than they are from Avidyne.
>Either Cirrus is just sucking up extra profit, or more likely, they were getting a substantially better discount off of list price from Arnav than they are from Avidyne.<
In general, the emergence of the Avidyne alternative is a step toward computer-like competition, which should simultaneously drive up capability (as with the Avidyne display) and drive down, or at least hold steady, price. From 1979 to the present, I seem to end up spending $3500-$4000 for each new desktop computer. The difference is what I get for that price, when I buy a new one every three or four years.
That the Avidyne has the same street price as the Arnav shows the computer process in action, since it is so much more capable. I agree that the difference in installed price, in the Cirrus, is odd – but that the difference in the OEM price Cirrus pays is probably the explanation. One way or another Cirrus should clear this up, in keeping with its general “respect the intelligence of the customer” policy.
Just got off the phone with Suzi at Cirrus Design and they are still in the figuring-out-what-to-do stage. The rationale for the $5,500 price is not yet well understood.
It is being offered to position holders who get their planes BEFORE Cirrus can get a Certificate of Airworthiness with an Avidyne installed. They actually want to build the plane with an ARNAV installed, check it out, do an acceptance test, get the certificate – and if you go for the Avidyne-later option, then they will remove the ARNAV, put on an aluminum plate cover, and send you on your way – for training, ferrying, whatever – later send you an Avidyne, and have it installed at a service center for you.
The explanation of the $5,500 price was that it was a GOOD DEAL for people who would face $13,000 plus installation if they bought a new Avidyne to replace the ARNAV. However, when I brought up the value of the ARNAV I’d have left over, we didn’t get much clarity. She referred me to Ian Bentley when he returns.
Given the interim timing of all of this, I wonder if finding a used ARNAV – Cirrus will have a few from their demonstrators – would enable training and ferrying home…
I can confirm getting almost the same information but a little earlier in the day the $5,500 was not quite final. I specifically asked if the cost would include installation. The answer was that it would. Cirrus ships the Avidyne unit to the service center that you specify and they install it.
I was also told to expect to see the Arnav in the plane when I take deliver and that it would be removed after that. This appears to be required to get final inspector signoffs. I was assured that I would be left with a valid certificate of airworthiness and there would not be any problems with required equipment lists.
I questioned the first quarter 2002 availability of the Avidyne units and was told that the dates were very solid. I guess everyone can put their own conservatism factor on that.
I also asked about the possibility of deleting the stormscope from my plane and waiting for weather uploads to be available. I am not sure that I would have done that, but it was not relevant as the storm scope was already in my plane and they were getting ready to fly it. If anyone else has a close in delivery date and is having similar thoughts, you might want to contact Cirrus sooner rather than later to see what your options are.
On timing for engine monitoring, I was told that Avidyne was very well aware of Cirrus’ and the owners interest in this (maybe the read this forum, unlike Arnav) but there was no information on dates.
Obviously, it would have been nice not to have to go through all this. However, it seems a lot better than flying around with an Arnav for which upgrades like engine monitoring would make very little sense.
This may be one example of where are discussions are premature. Cirrus has not released but only discussed a price. Until we know the facts we are really not sure what we will pay. But the current situation is different than what will occur down the road. If Cirrus is charging around $5500 for BOTH an Arnav and an upgraded Avidyne, then that IS a good deal. Folks like me who are getting a plane later in 2002 hopefully will have the option of EITHER unit at factory install. There is where I cannot see charging more for one unit over the other if the street price is the same.
If Cirrus is charging around $5500 for BOTH an Arnav and an upgraded Avidyne, then that IS a good deal.
They are charging for delivery of the plane with a panel over the ARNAV hole, and mailing you the Avidyne when it is available. We decided that we take the plane with the ARNAV and fly with it until Avidyne actually has a unit with approach plates and a CD drive. Then we will decide on an upgrade.
That isn’t how it works. When you take delivery, there is an Arnav in the panel. That is to get the plane through the necessary inspection sign-offs. Then the Arnav comes out and a blank panel goes over the hole. At some later date, when the Avidyne is available, your service center installs it. I know the Arnav in and out sound crazy, but Cirrus made a special call to tell me to expect to see the Arnav in the panel when I take delivery. They did not want me to think they had forgotten that I don’t want the Arnav or to think that I could keep the Arnav until the Avidyne was ready. Hope that helps. I can’t explain why it has to be this way. It seems to be tangled up in the bureaucracy beyond Cirrus.
In summary, you do not get to fly around with an Arnav and then get a new Avidyne. There will be a blank panel where the MFD should be until the Avidyne arrives.