Two Charlie Delta

Guest Discussion
1

Well, I’ve gotten up to Boulder, CO (1V5) a couple of times now to fly N162CD, and let me just say - WOW!

Here are the particulars of that aircraft: SR20; S/N 10061; “B” model with dual alternators, leather, 3-blade prop; Empty weight - 2127; Moment - 297.264; Ending hobbs today - 93.9;

It rents for $130/hr (wet) and the instructor is $33 (also wet when I fly!)

I am having some trouble in the landings, and would like some feedback from some of you lucky owners. The main problem, I think, is that it flies like a little hot rod - light, responsive controls and very slippery. On final it seems really really “hot” to me, but actually the airspeed is right at 75kts. I’ve flown a bunch of other airplanes with similar final approach speeds, so I’m thinking it must be the vertical velocity that’s giving me trouble. Here’s how they teach it there: On approach, throttle back to 2000 RPM. Put in 50% flaps at 120kts, which slows it to around 100kts. Abeam the numbers, set the power at 12", which slows it to around 85kts. On final (or base, it depends), full flaps, pitch for 80kts. We fly a fairly tight pattern and almost always have power at idle on short final, with 75kts for airspeed. It seems a lot faster than that, and I find myself raising the nose, which is a bad thing! So, how do you folks do it? I think I’d be more comfortable flying a somewhat shallower approach, under power, but I think the tighter, steeper pattern is safer (if the fan quits).

My only other concern is the location of the circuit breakers down by the pilot’s right knee. Are we supposed to be able to read those?

Any pointers would be appreciated. Also, not to start a huge debate, but in the pattern do you use pitch for airspeed and power for descent rate?

Konrad

2

It seems a lot faster than that, and I find myself raising the nose, which is a bad thing! So, how do you folks do it? I think I’d be more comfortable flying a somewhat shallower approach, under power, but I think the tighter, steeper pattern is safer (if the fan quits).

Short answer–“if it hurts, don’t do that!” The steep, power-off approach does get your attention, but as long as you don’t get any slower, you will have plenty of energy for the flare. You just have to resist the urge to start pulling until the runway is Right There. This is pretty much standard procedure for all high wing-loading airplanes.

A compromise would be to come in with the power off and then ease in just a bit to arrest your sink rate, but you’ll waste a bunch of runway that way.

The SAF tower controllers are finally used to looking way up high for me; at first they could never find me on final because I’d be a couple of miles out on a straight-in but still be 1000AGL.

3

I am having some trouble in the landings, and would like some feedback from some of you lucky owners.
Hi Konrad,
I’m sure you’ll get lots of opinions on this one. Wings Aloft taught it to me like this:
Fairly far out (~5 miles), get the speed down to 120 - about 22.5" HG, or needle horizontal. On entering downwind, MP to 22" HG, make sure speed is OK, and feed in the first 50%. Abeam the numbers, MP to the bottom of the green (15" HG), wait for the airspeed to get into the white arc (100 kts), and put in all the flap. Now nail the speed at 80 kts for the remainder of the downwind (not much), base and final. Fly that speed and attitude all the way down to almost touchdown, making adjustments to power as normal to maintain the approach slope. When it starts to feel like you’re about to bore into the runway, power gently back to idle, bring the nose up just a hair, which has you paralleling the runway… then just a hair more, to the landing attitude that Kara, my instructor, had shown me… and squeak-squeak.
This worked very well for me - almost every landing a greaser, or close to it - until I started experimenting. The first thing I did was play with that approach speed; if you think 75 feels fast, well… 80 feels faster. I’m sure that there are lots of “formulae” which will give you decent landings, but so far, the “as taught” method is the only one which consistently gives me good results. [Of course, all of this is for a normal landing - not short/soft]. In any case, I’d be careful of getting much slower than 75 if you have anything more than half tanks and even one passenger; it takes a LOT of power to arrest your sink if you get behind that curve, just like most airplanes with high wing loading. (As a point of reference, 1.3 Vs1 works out to 73 kts).

If I had to choose the one thing that really “makes” the landing for me, it’s knowing and looking for the right landing attitude, which (as many have commented), looks lower than it should. The temptation to flare too soon and too much is what gets some people at first.

All this is just my own experience…

Also, not to start a huge debate, but in the pattern do you use pitch for airspeed and power for descent rate?

I do!

My only other concern is the location of the circuit breakers down by the pilot’s right knee. Are we supposed to be able to read those?

I keep a copy of page 40 of Wings Aloft’s excellent training manual in my checklist book. It lays out all the breaker names clearly and in the right order - with that, I can find any breaker I need to using the Braille method.

  • Mike.
4

My only other concern is the location of the circuit breakers down by the pilot’s right knee. Are we supposed to be able to read those?
Konrad,
Your question inspired me to do make the sheet for my checklist that I’ve been promising myself. I hope that this display works - I’d be happy to send you the Word 2000 document either way if you email me.
Disclaimer: I developed this document for my own use only. It may be entirely unsuitable for any other airplane. If you use it, you do so at your own risk!

  • Mike.

!(http://bandersnatch.homeip.net/n84mr/pictures/Acessories/n84mr breaker panel.jpg)

I’ve shown the STANDBY VACUUM in the “popped” position, because I normally keep it there except prior to expected IFR flight.

5

On final it seems really really “hot” to me, but actually the airspeed is right at 75kts.

If you’re gonna have the speed at 75 kts, you need some power on for the flare, if you want to flare power off, fly a steeper approach at 80kts. At 75kts and no power, your descent rate is quite high, and there is not enough energy to slow you down just by raising the nose. Don’t worry about how much runway you are using, providing you are over the numbers when you start to flare, you will land in much less runway than you are going to be able to take off in!

I like to fly a steepish approach at 80 kts, with just a tad of power, and leave that power in for the flare - greasers every time! If I’m too low, I will add power then ease it back in the flare, but don’t just chop the power or you will drop - thud!

When you do flare, just look out the windscreen at the far end of the runway and fly level. If you feel yourself starting to sink at an increasing rate (meaning you flared too high) then do NOT raise the nose any more, just ease in a whisker of power. In the correct landing attitude, it will look nose low, but after you plant the mains and lower the nose, you will be surprised how far it goes down.

6

$130 an hour? I can’t begin to imagine how many hours it would have on it if it was being rented for that in the Bay Area…

Well, I’ve gotten up to Boulder, CO (1V5) a couple of times now to fly N162CD, and let me just say - WOW!

Here are the particulars of that aircraft: SR20; S/N 10061; “B” model with dual alternators, leather, 3-blade prop; Empty weight - 2127; Moment - 297.264; Ending hobbs today - 93.9;

It rents for $130/hr (wet) and the instructor is $33 (also wet when I fly!)

7

I am having some trouble in the landings, and would like some feedback from some of you lucky owners.

Hi Konrad,

I’m sure you’ll get lots of opinions on this one. Wings Aloft taught it to me like this:

Fairly far out (~5 miles), get the speed down to 120 - about 22.5" HG, or needle horizontal. On entering downwind, MP to 22" HG, make sure speed is OK, and feed in the first 50%. Abeam the numbers, MP to the bottom of the green (15" HG), wait for the airspeed to get into the white arc (100 kts), and put in all the flap. Now nail the speed at 80 kts for the remainder of the downwind (not much), base and final. Fly that speed and attitude all the way down to almost touchdown, making adjustments to power as normal to maintain the approach slope. When it starts to feel like you’re about to bore into the runway, power gently back to idle, bring the nose up just a hair, which has you paralleling the runway… then just a hair more, to the landing attitude that Kara, my instructor, had shown me… and squeak-squeak.

This worked very well for me - almost every landing a greaser, or close to it - until I started experimenting. The first thing I did was play with that approach speed; if you think 75 feels fast, well… 80 feels faster. I’m sure that there are lots of “formulae” which will give you decent landings, but so far, the “as taught” method is the only one which consistently gives me good results. [Of course, all of this is for a normal landing - not short/soft]. In any case, I’d be careful of getting much slower than 75 if you have anything more than half tanks and even one passenger; it takes a LOT of power to arrest your sink if you get behind that curve, just like most airplanes with high wing loading. (As a point of reference, 1.3 Vs1
works out to 73 kts).

Looks like your typing finger hit a wrong key; 73 kts is Vso…

BK

If I had to choose the one thing that really “makes” the landing for me, it’s knowing and looking for the right landing attitude, which (as many have commented), looks lower than it should. The temptation to flare too soon and too much is what gets some people at first.

All this is just my own experience…

Also, not to start a huge debate, but in the pattern do you use pitch for airspeed and power for descent rate?

I do!

My only other concern is the location of the circuit breakers down by the pilot’s right knee. Are we supposed to be able to read those?

I keep a copy of page 40 of Wings Aloft’s excellent training manual in my checklist book. It lays out all the breaker names clearly and in the right order - with that, I can find any breaker I need to using the Braille method.

  • Mike.
8

I am having some trouble in the landings, and would like some feedback from some of you lucky owners.
Hi Konrad,
Here is a simple method that works for me every time:

  1. 80 kts on final with power at the bottom of the green arc.
  2. Chop the power when low and over the numbers.
  3. Look at the far end of the runway, don’t look at anything else.
  4. Flair only enough to control the last few feet of descent until touchdown at a nice gentle rate.
    Don’t worry to much about the plane floating down the runway as long as you are only a few feet off the ground. the plane will slow down on it’s own.
    On Sunday I violated rule #1 and did not have the plane slowed down sufficiently before ATC put me on final with a stiff cross wind. I hit the numbers at 100kts and floated for what seemed like 4000 feet (my wife claims it was only 3000). Fortunately the runway was 10,000 feet.
    Stuart

Hi Konrad,

I’m sure you’ll get lots of opinions on this one. Wings Aloft taught it to me like this:

Fairly far out (~5 miles), get the speed down to 120 - about 22.5" HG, or needle horizontal. On entering downwind, MP to 22" HG, make sure speed is OK, and feed in the first 50%. Abeam the numbers, MP to the bottom of the green (15" HG), wait for the airspeed to get into the white arc (100 kts), and put in all the flap. Now nail the speed at 80 kts for the remainder of the downwind (not much), base and final. Fly that speed and attitude all the way down to almost touchdown, making adjustments to power as normal to maintain the approach slope. When it starts to feel like you’re about to bore into the runway, power gently back to idle, bring the nose up just a hair, which has you paralleling the runway… then just a hair more, to the landing attitude that Kara, my instructor, had shown me… and squeak-squeak.

This worked very well for me - almost every landing a greaser, or close to it - until I started experimenting. The first thing I did was play with that approach speed; if you think 75 feels fast, well… 80 feels faster. I’m sure that there are lots of “formulae” which will give you decent landings, but so far, the “as taught” method is the only one which consistently gives me good results. [Of course, all of this is for a normal landing - not short/soft]. In any case, I’d be careful of getting much slower than 75 if you have anything more than half tanks and even one passenger; it takes a LOT of power to arrest your sink if you get behind that curve, just like most airplanes with high wing loading. (As a point of reference, 1.3 Vs1 works out to 73 kts).

If I had to choose the one thing that really “makes” the landing for me, it’s knowing and looking for the right landing attitude, which (as many have commented), looks lower than it should. The temptation to flare too soon and too much is what gets some people at first.

All this is just my own experience…

Also, not to start a huge debate, but in the pattern do you use pitch for airspeed and power for descent rate?

I do!

My only other concern is the location of the circuit breakers down by the pilot’s right knee. Are we supposed to be able to read those?

I keep a copy of page 40 of Wings Aloft’s excellent training manual in my checklist book. It lays out all the breaker names clearly and in the right order - with that, I can find any breaker I need to using the Braille method.

  • Mike.
9

(As a point of reference, 1.3 Vs1 works out to 73 kts).
Looks like your typing finger hit a wrong key; 73 kts is Vso…

BK
D’oh! You’re right.
My book says that Vs0 is 56 kts
Vs1 (airplane clean) is 65 kts
I meant to say 1.3 Vs0 is 73 kts; it’s actually 72.8 knots, but my flying isn’t precise enough for that to matter.

What DOES matter is weight - these numbers are at gross weight. Speeds are lower for lighter weights, which is something to bear in mind for short-field operation.

  • Mike
10

I am having some trouble in the landings, and would like some feedback from some of you lucky owners.

Hi Konrad,

Here is a simple method that works for me every time:

  1. 80 kts on final with power at the bottom of the green arc.
  1. Chop the power when low and over the numbers.
  1. Look at the far end of the runway, don’t look at anything else.
  1. Flair only enough to control the last few feet of descent until touchdown at a nice gentle rate.

Don’t worry to much about the plane floating down the runway as long as you are only a few feet off the ground. the plane will slow down on it’s own.

On Sunday I violated rule #1 and did not have the plane slowed down sufficiently before ATC put me on final with a stiff cross wind. I hit the numbers at 100kts and floated for what seemed like 4000 feet (my wife claims it was only 3000). Fortunately the runway was 10,000 feet.

Stuart

Another alternative if you don’t want to worry about pitch and power and all that stuff would be:

  1. Final at 120 knots, clean

  2. Cross the numbers at 100 ft agl

  3. Mixture to idle cut-off, mags and master off,

    Pull the chute. (seat back up or back flat is
    still open for debate.

  4. Fly final one runway width upwind for each 7 knots of cross wind component.

mdz

11

At 75kts and no power, your descent rate is quite high, and there is not enough energy to slow you down just by raising the nose.

I beg to differ; I land this way all the time. It does require waiting to start to pull until you are quite close to the runway, seemingly almost in ground effect, but this is good practice for moving on to bigger planes. My Baron requires this technique at 95 knots.