Landing Tips

Guest Discussion
1

Hello Everyone. This is my first post.
I have just taken delivery of a new SR20. I have also completed my “transition training” with UND. (They are Excellent!)

I was hoping that other users could give me some tips regarding landing techniques and speeds. I am slowly but surely “unlearning” all of my 172 landing experience.

My UND instructor really pushed a minimum touchdown speed of 80 knots. I have also noticed that I need to carry power until right before touchdown or the plane sinks with a pretty hefty VS. Finally, I have noticed that there really isn’t a flare as compared to a 172.

I feel almost like I am starting all over again. I did 10 touch and go’s today and they were pretty good. However, 2 days ago, one of my landings bounced. I may have flared or I may have tried to level out a little too high. (The sight picture is so different.) Anyway, I didn’t touch down hard at all but the plane bounced a little. Then, when the wheels touched down again, the plane bounced even higher. On the 3rd bounce I executed a balked landing and did a go-around. It spooked me a little because I didn’t land that hard at all. I am trying to determine what would cause this. During training, my instructor had me do some no-flap landings in excess of 100 Knots. We touched down MUCH harder and the plane didn’t bounce on these landings.

Can anyone give me some insight as to what causes this type of bounce (where each successive bounce gets bigger)? I am sure my mains touched down first on each bounce. My best guest is that I flared too-much and too-high and the plane dropped to the runway. Or, maybe I pulled back on the yoke after the mains touched down and the plane started to fly again.

How do you “grease” landings in your Cirrus?

Thanks in advance.

2

In reply to:

Hello Everyone. This is my first post.

Hello Wayne - welcome.

In reply to:

I have just taken delivery of a new SR20. I have also completed my “transition training” with UND. (They are Excellent!)

Congratulations! I (along with the members of COPA) wish you a long, happy, trouble-free and SAFE experience with your new baby.

In reply to:

I was hoping that other users could give me some tips regarding landing techniques and speeds. I am slowly but surely “unlearning” all of my 172 landing experience. My UND instructor really pushed a minimum touchdown speed of 80 knots.

Personally, I use 75 over the numbers, and WAY less than that at touchdown!. I subtract a knot for each hundred pounds below gross - so if it’s just me in the airplane, with half tanks, my airplane weighs about 2500 lbs, so I use 70 knots over the numbers (and 5 knots more on final). I was taught 80 over the numbers, but soon learned that the extra speed leads to excessive float; if you DO try to “put it down” at 80, you’ll bounce for sure! Of course, that applies even more once the instuctor gets out the airplane.

In reply to:

I have also noticed that I need to carry power until right before touchdown or the plane sinks with a pretty hefty VS.

Hmmm… can’t say I’ve noticed that. If you let your speed get too slow then that applies - otherwise, the airplane should not be doing anything unusual.

In reply to:

Finally, I have noticed that there really isn’t a flare as compared to a 172.

There really IS a flare, but it doesn’t LOOK like one. For me, what works is to fly at my “over the numbers” speed (see above) until I’m a couple of feet off the runway, and then increase the back pressure at just the right rate to prevent the plane from landing. The darn thing lands anyway, but it’s amazing how many of those are greasers. Actually, that technique has always served me well with any airplane, but of course it takes a little time to get the feel for that “just the right rate” thing. At this point, I’d have to say that the SR20 is the most consistent airplane I’ve ever flown for getting good landings.

In reply to:

I feel almost like I am starting all over again. I did 10 touch and go’s today and they were pretty good. However, 2 days ago, one of my landings bounced. I may have flared or I may have tried to level out a little too high.

My guess is that you had too much speed… see above.

In reply to:

(The sight picture is so different.)

That it is! I transitioned from a C182RG… with it’s high glareshield… I was amazed to actually SEE the runway during the flare in the SR20!

In reply to:

Anyway, I didn’t touch down hard at all but the plane bounced a little. Then, when the wheels touched down again, the plane bounced even higher. On the 3rd bounce I executed a balked landing and did a go-around. It spooked me a little because I didn’t land that hard at all. I am trying to determine what would cause this.

Speed…!

In reply to:

During training, my instructor had me do some no-flap landings in excess of 100 Knots. We touched down MUCH harder and the plane didn’t bounce on these landings.

IMHO, that’s still way too much speed (esp. if you’re talking about touching down at this speed!)

In reply to:

Can anyone give me some insight as to what causes this type of bounce (where each successive bounce gets bigger)? I am sure my mains touched down first on each bounce. My best guest is that I flared too-much and too-high and the plane dropped to the runway. Or, maybe I pulled back on the yoke after the mains touched down and the plane started to fly again.

I’ll leave this one to others who understand it better than I do… I have some theories, but I don’t know if they’re right. I’m pretty sure the very springy mains are part of it, though!

In reply to:

How do you “grease” landings in your Cirrus?

See above – just don’t let the sucker land!

In reply to:

Thanks in advance.

The best way to get great info is to join COPA. (Yes, this is an unabashed pitch). You should have gotten a “code number” from Cirrus, along with instructions on how to use it to get yourself a 60-day trial membership. I guarantee you that your Cirrus knowledge will start to increase, and keep doing so at an amazing rate, once you start accessing the Members Discussion forums. We’re simply the best aircraft owner group anywhere! (Don’t take my word for it – ask other members!) [;)]

  • Mike.
3

Wayne,

Congratulations on your new SR20!

I’ll second Mike R.'s comments and state that the way to avoid bounces of the sort that you describe is to land at a slower airspeed! 80 KIAS is simply too fast — especially at light weights. I use 75 KIAS as a target in most situations and am able to get the stall horn to come on in the flare, followed by a satisfying touchdown, most every time.

If a bounce does occur, I strongly recommend that you add power and go around after bounce #1. This will help ensure that the bounce doesn’t evolve into a full-blown porpoise, which will eventually leave you with a bent propeller. (I’ve seen Cirri that have had prop strikes due to porpoising, and they’re not pretty.) You can read about the dynamics of porpoising http://www.aopa.org/members/ftmag/article.cfm?article=3888here and http://www.aopa.org/members/ftmag/article.cfm?article=1384here.

Like Mike, I strongly recommend that you become a COPA member! There’s so much more information available on the members’ side of the Forum, and $50 is a pittance compared to all the other costs associated with being an airplane owner.

Cheers,
Roger

4

Wayne,

Speed, speed, speed!

See this post and its attached spreadsheet (based on an article in Aviation Safety).

Also - join COPA. It will be the best $50 you ever spend. Otherwise, welcome to the Cirrus family.

5

I can’t believe that they’re still teaching 80 knots in the SR20–that’s crazy. Note that the POH says 75, which is still generous, particularly if you’re below gross.The vicious circle is this–the Cirrus is a fairly high wing-loading aircraft which, like all high loading aircraft, needs to be flown on speed, and will develop a wicked sink rate if you get too slow (as you no doubt noticed.) What the transitioning 172 pilot needs to unlearn is the slow, high roundout, but rather to hold pitch attitude all the way down to the flare. Unfortunately, the factory instructors (at least some of them; it’s been 2 1/2 years since I did it) don’t have the time or wherewithal to teach this technique, so they try to fudge it by teaching you to land faster, figuring that you’ll give up the extra speed in the early roundout. But if you come on with too much speed, it’s easier to get a tail strike, because you have too much elevator authority in the flare, so they teach you to put it on flat. But if you put it on flat, you risk a bounce or a nosewheel-first landing, which leads to porpoising, which leads to divots in the runway.My recommendation is to grab an instructor that flies heavy, high wing-loading planes, and learn to land the thing by flying the approach at 75 knots and waiting before rounding out. This gives you plenty of energy to flare, even without any power, but is slow enough so that it’s virtually impossible to hit the tail, and you won’t float halfway across the airport.In the SR20 I regularly pull the throttle to idle abeam the numbers and deadstick it in at 75. You get a very impressive deck angle on the way in (don’t do this with non-pilot passengers) and you have to do a fairly sudden flare at the end, but there is more than enough energy to arrest the descent and grease it on.I transitioned from a 172 to a King Air 200 (long story) and my ears are still ringing with “keep the nose coming down! Keep the nose coming down!” This served me well in transitioning to the Cirrus. The trick is to not “round out” at all in the 172 sense, but to maintain your pitch attitude until it’s time to flare, close to the ground.It’s a little unnerving at first, but once you get used to it you’ll find that it’s not a big deal (and you’re really a lot further from the ground than you think.) Like I said, get a heavy airplane instructor and go shoot some landings like you were flying a turboprop.

6

When you bounce I would highly recommemd “going around”. Watch your speed and you’ll never bounce. And when you touch down hold the nose wheel off the ground as long as you can so you wont shimmy.

7

I’ll second the other replies to your post - getting the speed right is the key, but will also add that you might want to try a steeper final approach. My experience is that if you get too low on the approach and therefore have to carry a significant amount of power on short final to make the runway then it is hard to get the flare right. I try to end up on short final with little or no power on, at around 75 knots depending on weight, which allows a decisive flare over the numbers and a gentle touchdown at quite a low forward speed.

8

In reply to:

My UND instructor really pushed a minimum touchdown speed of 80 knots.

I’m going to pick mine up in 2 weeks, this is one of the things which has been ‘concerning’ me about the UND course. If the instructor is going to push this 80kt crap we’re going to have words, probably not very nice ones.

I’m an ex mooney pilot and the #1 cause, the absolute #1 cause of prop strikes in mooneys starts with coming in too fast. It happens all the time, people come in fast, so they are too shallow, so they hit the nosewheel first … you have now just started the porpoise.

Did you try arguing with the UND guy or didn’t you know better at the time?

Man I wish Cirrus would find a decent company to do their freaking training.

9

Congratulations on buying a Cirrus & finding the web site.
At the risk of being a heretic I am going to offer some contrary advice! First, let me say, that I owned and flew a 172 for over 10 years and will over 1,000 hours, so I think I have a basic understanding of what your transition is like.
Secondly, I acknowledge that everyone learns differently. What may work for me may not work for anyone else on this site and vice versa. You need to find advice that works for you and or a CFI who works well with you.
First, Now to my landing advice. Exact airspeed is not that important! What is important is how you react to being a few knots fast or slow. You are not flying a jet with massive amounts of inertia and which have engines which are very slow to react to power changes. If being within a knot or two was so important, then anytime there was a 1 or 2 knot gust of wind you would see pilots all over the place slamming planes onto the runway, having tail and prop strikes. Try to be as close as you can to your target airspeed, but as long as you are within a few knots, proper technique will give you a good landing.
I can never guarantee that I am within 1 knot of my “landing” or “approach” speeds, nor can I calculate an approach speed for the exact weight of the airplane at that stage of my flight, or exactly how my CG will affect the landing. I just do the best I can. I try to be over the numbers a little below 80 knots, with maybe a knot or two more if I think I am heavy and an knot or two less if I am light. The Cirrus is a heavy plane, and I don’t worry too much about crosswinds (as far as speed is concerned) unless it is very strong or quite gusty.
OK, so now everyone is steaming mad at me and ready to pound the “reply” button to castigate me for my dangerous advice. So why do I say speed is not that important? Well, it is simple, if you are a few knots fast and use otherwise good technique, you will just float further, a lot further maybe, but you will still be able to have a wonder full landing. (Unless you try to force the plane down, and that is when you will porpise and risk a prop strike.) If you are slow, you may need to add a touch of power, but you can still land well. I think these techniques are called power-on and power-off landings. Both will work well in the Cirrus. The “power-on” pilots will tell you that they “fly the plane to the runway” in a tone that implies that if you do not do so you are not as good a pilot. In all accuracy, regardless of whether you use power-on or power-off techniques, you are really flying the plane well into the rollout.
OK, so what technique do I use? To start with the transitioning pilot, next time you fly, before you take off, stop at the end of the runway, look at the “sight picture.” Now mentally adjust this picture so that the nose is a couple of inches higher. This is you landing sight picture. It may look or feel like you are nose down, especially when compared to a Cessna, but at this point, you have to know that it is not. If time allows, take a minute or two, get used to this position, look for your visual cues, whether they are at the far end of the runway or the sides with your peripheral vision.
OK, so now you are flying, on approach, with your airspeed near the correct number. Start your flare as you normally would. This may appear to be a little closer to the ground than it appeared in your 172. (I have always had a strong tendency to flare high, especially at night.) Now the key is try not to land! Really, unless I am working on a short field landing, I rarely have any clue of exactly where my tires will touch. If you flared at about the right height above the runway, when you hear the stall warning horn and then your tires will touch down within a second. Then keep pulling back and keep the nose wheel off the ground as long as you can (unless you need to stop very quickly). What speed will your tires touch down? I have no idea. I’ve never look inside the cockpit once my flare starts.

Warnings: If you at any point start to feel, or see sinking, go around immediately. You have gotten too slow, and you are about to drop the plane. This probably happened because you flared too high or your roundout was too aggressive so you ballooned. Failure to give the plane a lot of power immediately may result in a tail strike. If you pull back far too much, the plane will start to sink rapidly.

I learned how to use this technique during my primary training. It works well for me. It may work for you. The key is that you should try the various techniques you’ve read here and do what is most comfortable for you and give you the most consistent results. Then take a Cirrus CFI up and show him a few landings. If you are doing anything dangerous, they will notice it and correct you.

Good luck.

10

Thanks again for the quality and quantity of responses.

As you can see, I am a proud new member of this wonderful organization!

Today, I went out and did touch and go’s for an hour or so. This time, I simply focused on flying the airplane instead of watching the airspeed indicatior. It appears that I like to pull power to 12" MP abeam the touchdown point, cross the numbers around 72, slowly round out, and then apply continuous back pressure until the plane settles to the ground. The stall warning horn starts going off about 1 second (or less) before the tires touch the runway. I don’t know what exact speed I am going when the wheels touch the ground.

This approach is what “feels” right for me in this airplane. The float is not too pronounced and the plane settles “just right.”

Thanks again for all of the quality suggestions!

11

My two cents. The laws of physics can not be broken. Anywhere near 80 on a final with any reasonable sink rate should be OK. Then, just don’t round out two high. If you do the airspeed will decay, possibly to stall and you’ll strike the tail. Secondly, the plane will only stop flying when it is good and ready to stop flying and that is at stall. Now, the stall will vary a bit based on attitude, but not much. So I come in at 80 or so, round out somewhat low, then just hold the plane off until it stops flying. My bad landings in the SR22 have come from when I’m lazy and don’t continue to increase the back pressure and hit the pavement too fast to stop flying.

12

Why would an instructor teach one to touch down any airplane while still at a flying speed or to not hold the nose up in a flare? I’m not a Cirrus driver, but find the instructor’s apparent teachings (in Wayne’s comments) very odd…not to mention, wrong. However, I recall some early articles on the Lancair Columbia 300, saying similar things: that you had to fly the airplane to the runway, as opposed to holding it off nose high until it’s ready to land. If it is really necessary to touch down while still at a flying speed, isn’t there something amiss with weight and balance in that case…maybe too nose heavy? Any aerodynamists out there care to respond?

13

In reply to:

You can read about the dynamics of porpoising herehere.

Roger -

Excellent references! - esp. the Rod Machado article… I like his explanation.

  • Mike.
14

Marty: Thanks for the link. I printed and laminated two copies, one for me and one for my CFII.

I did notice on the last trip to Oshkosh with 4 aboard and at gross and with the center of gravity near the aft limit that not only did I need all of the 80 knots but that keeping the nosewheel off was easier. The airspeed was down all the way to 50 or 40 by the time it touched down.

I once flared too high at that configuration. Didn’t bounce, but it was a firm arrival. There is energy for one flare but not two and I should have either used power or gone around.

With maybe 50 gal. of fuel and 2 aboard the gross is around 2800 or 2900 and the approach is around 75 (rounded to the nearest mark!). Chop the throttle at some point before the numbers and then come real close to the ground and try to keep it flying. If all is going right, you should hear the stall warner right about the moment of touchdown.

It is going to take a definite elevator to keep the nose off after the mains touch down since the center of gravity in this situation is more forward. It takes a little re-learning to account for the fact that in this situation you don’t have the center of gravity so far aft.

15

Dave,

I have about 700 hours in an SR22, but I’ve flown an SR20 a few times and what I say here applies equally to the '20.

First, the SR2x lands like any other airplane with regard to speed. You generally hold 1.3 times VS0 down final until you come “over the fence”.

In my SR22, VS0 (stall speed with flaps fully extended) is 59 knots. Multiply that by 1.3 and you get 76.7. Round it up to 80 knots for a little safety margin, and because 80 is easy to remember.

As you transition from final approach to the landing attitude, you throttle back, just as with every other airplane I’ve ever flown. I couldn’t tell you what my airspeed is as I start to flare, because I’m looking at the runway at that point, but I’m sure it’s way less than 80 knots because I’ve reduced power and begun arresting my descent.

Just as with any other airplane, you want your airspeed to decay to stall speed just as your main tires reach an altitude of one inch AGL.

The SR20 and SR22 flare about the same amount as every other airplane. It just looks like a very flat approach and flare from the cockpit. This is one factor in transitioning from other airplanes. To an observer on the ground it is an absolutely normal flare.

The other factor is due to the way the airplane flies. When I learned to fly in a Cessna 172, if I misjudged the roundout and ended up too high above the runway, I could often salvage the landing by using excessive flare. You cannot do this in a Cirrus because at low airspeeds it has a higher sink rate. This just means that you can’t be too sloppy when you level off. If you do level off too high, a touch of power will save the day, although it will cause you to use up more runway.

As many people on this forum have pointed out, too-high approach speeds lead to landing problems. VS0 for the SR20 at max gross weight is only 56 knots indicated airspeed, so 1.3 times that would be 72.8 knots. Remember, that all these numbers are at max gross, and are lower at the lesser weights where we usually fly.

If it is true that pilots are being trained to use 80 knots as a final approach speed in an SR20, I am appalled. This will only make it harder to grease the landing and makes learning to land a Cirrus way more difficult than it needs to be.

As others have also pointed out, the excellent handling characteristics of the Cirrus make it easy to get consistently good landings under all types of conditions. For example, many people have said that Cirri are easier to land in a crosswind than any airplane they’ve ever flown.

If you get a ride in a Cirrus and experience a couple of landings (done at the correct approach speed), you’ll appreciate what I’m talking about.

Regards,

-Mike

16

I am grateful for the quality of these responses.

I fully intend on joining COPA. The enthusiasm of its members is quite apparent from the answers I have received.

I, too, have had great success in landing the 172 by applying a constant backpressure to the yoke to keep the plane from settling until the wheels actually touch the runway.

I want to try this same technique on the SR20 but I am fearful of a tail strike. Do tail strikes happen frequenty? If I roll out above the runway and then gently apply a continous back pressure until the plane settles will I risk a tail strike?

You may find this interesting…

While waiting in the Customer Lounge at Cirrus, one of the transcontinental ferry pilots was describing his favorite landing technique… He would allow the plane to get into ground effect and then he would reduce flaps from 100 to 50. According to him, the plane would settle gently to the runway.

Personally, I am not interested in landing like this but I thought I might mention it as part of this discussion.

17

I read with great interest the challenge of landing a Cirrus. I just overnighted my order for the new Centennial, but my current ride, a Mooney 201, has the same landing characteristics, or so it would appear. I regularly train with Don Kaye here in the Bay area, the putative “Gold Standard CFII” in Mooneydom, and he drills me constantly on two key landing considerations which I’ll bet will help me (and maybe fellow Cirrus pilots) when I fly the SR-22.

First, rock-steady airspeed and the stabilized approach. A Mooney needs to be 1.3X Vso over the threshold and trimmed free of any control pressure. Faster and it floats in ground effect to the far end of the runway; slower and she sinks like a rock, pancake flat, depriving the pilot peering out the abbreviated windscreen of any sight picture and depth perception clues. And I know something about lack of depth perception, being blind in my left eye!

The other item that’s really helped me besides the stabilized approach is the requirement for a relatively steep slope to final, or as Don says “3 degrees” (nose down). Keeping that nose down a little longer, almost to an unnerving point over the numbers, gives you a great look at your height and maintains a little more airspeed at a time when you’re yanking back on the throttle.

In hundreds of landings, I’ve only bounced off the mains once, when the door popped open on takeoff and I flared too high. Works for this one-eyed pilot… and I’ll see how it applies to my Centennial! By the way, what is “UND?” University of North Dakota for training? Thanks, Peter Kendall '83 M20J

18

“If it is true that pilots are being trained to use 80 knots as a final approach speed in an SR20, I am appalled. This will only make it harder to grease the landing and makes learning to land a Cirrus way more difficult than it needs to be.”

Completely agree. Does UND actually teach 80 knots for an SR20? (not 22???)

19

In reply to:

And when you touch down hold the nose wheel as long as you can so you wont shimmy.

Just to clarify, I’m sure you meant hold the nose wheel off as long as you can.

You should hear the stall warning going off as you’re touching down. If you don’t, you’re touching down too fast = too flat IMHO.

As far as speeds, in the SR22 on short final I’m using 77 knots minus one knot for every 100 pounds under 3400 (MGW).

20

"And when you touch down hold the nose wheel off the ground as long as you can so you wont shimmy."I disagree with the idea of holding the nose wheel off to avoid a shimmy. If you have a shimmy you should get the torque adjusted on your nose wheel. There is no reason to put up with a shimmy. If you always land by holding the nose wheel off what do you do when you get a land and hold short instruction or land on a short runway where you need to brake and not just let it roll? Also, the landing distances in the POH were not established by someone landing and holding the nose off so if you do that you are on your own as far as establishing landing distance.