Approach Speeds

Guest Discussion
1

I am posting the following in the interest of removing porpoises. Posted at Kevin’s suggestion.

David-

You are correct in your understanding that Wings Aloft now suggests an approach speed of 75 kts in the SR20. Our newly-revised checklist reflects
that. Actually, we did it to match the Cirrus SR20 Pilot Operating Handbook, which suggests 75 knots for both a normal landing and a short-field landing.

This is the only significant content change that was made in the revised checklist - other changes were for editing or clarity, addition of some
metric units for our international customers, and a couple of rearrangements to match more common procedures. Therefore, we believe it just isn’t
significant enough to replace any pages.

To explain the approach speed change: When we originally learned how to fly the SR20 in 1998 and 1999, the Cirrus pilots of the time showed us that the plane is more controllable at 80 knots final approach rather than at 75.
Certainly there is the disadvantage of a longer landing distance, but most of the time that is not a problem, and when the runway is short we use the short field technique and 75 knots. However, while 80 knots is more controllable for approach, we have discovered in the last few months that if a pilot tries to plant the plane on the runway before enough airspeed has
bled off, the plane can bounce substantially, and many less experienced pilots end up porpoising over the runway. This is especially likely if the

plane is nose heavy (forward CG), which can happen in the SR20.

If the approach is flown at 75 knots, the roundout and flare requires more finesse on the part of the pilot: the plane is closer to stall, so it must be in just the right attitude at just the right altitude above the runway in a very short time. The end result is usually a firmer landing than at the higher approach speed. However, it is true that the plane is less likely to bounce in such a way that a porpoise ensues.

And to add one more factor, we find that the landing behavior of the SR20 is affected by landing weight, so a landing at 80 knots at max gross weight is actually very similar to a landing at 75 knots with one person on board and
not much fuel.

In other words, the pilot needs to decide. For consistency with Cirrus, we have put the POH-specified airspeeds in the checklist, and then during flight training we show the pilots how the plane behaves at the different approach speeds so they can make their own choices.

I hope this makes things clearer - if not, please send me any more questions
you may have!

Kevin Lane-Cumming

Cirrus Training Manager

Wings Aloft, Inc.

KevinLane-Cummings@wingsaloft.com

541-302-2645

2

I am posting the following in the interest of removing porpoises. Posted at Kevin’s suggestion.

David-

You are correct in your understanding that Wings Aloft now suggests an approach speed of 75 kts in the SR20. Our newly-revised checklist reflects
that. Actually, we did it to match the Cirrus SR20 Pilot Operating Handbook, which suggests 75 knots for both a normal landing and a short-field landing.

This is the only significant content change that was made in the revised checklist - other changes were for editing or clarity, addition of some
metric units for our international customers, and a couple of rearrangements to match more common procedures. Therefore, we believe it just isn’t
significant enough to replace any pages.

To explain the approach speed change: When we originally learned how to fly the SR20 in 1998 and 1999, the Cirrus pilots of the time showed us that the plane is more controllable at 80 knots final approach rather than at 75.
Certainly there is the disadvantage of a longer landing distance, but most of the time that is not a problem, and when the runway is short we use the short field technique and 75 knots. However, while 80 knots is more controllable for approach, we have discovered in the last few months that if a pilot tries to plant the plane on the runway before enough airspeed has
bled off, the plane can bounce substantially, and many less experienced pilots end up porpoising over the runway. This is especially likely if the

plane is nose heavy (forward CG), which can happen in the SR20.

If the approach is flown at 75 knots, the roundout and flare requires more finesse on the part of the pilot: the plane is closer to stall, so it must be in just the right attitude at just the right altitude above the runway in a very short time. The end result is usually a firmer landing than at the higher approach speed. However, it is true that the plane is less likely to bounce in such a way that a porpoise ensues.

And to add one more factor, we find that the landing behavior of the SR20 is affected by landing weight, so a landing at 80 knots at max gross weight is actually very similar to a landing at 75 knots with one person on board and
not much fuel.

In other words, the pilot needs to decide. For consistency with Cirrus, we have put the POH-specified airspeeds in the checklist, and then during flight training we show the pilots how the plane behaves at the different approach speeds so they can make their own choices.

I hope this makes things clearer - if not, please send me any more questions
you may have!

Kevin Lane-Cumming

Cirrus Training Manager

Wings Aloft, Inc.

KevinLane-Cummings@wingsaloft.com

541-302-2645

I agree Kevin…planting it on the runway is exactly what Not to do.

Approach speed of 80 at the fence (full flaps), nose pointed at 100Â’-75Â’ before the numbers (The grass).

Start to level at about 10Â’ off the grass 100Â’-75Â’ from the numbers and chop the power…(all the way). Gradually allow it to sink to 2Â’-3Â’ and slightly flare no more than 10 degrees. Keep the nose up slightly…not too much AND TRY NOT TO TOUCH DOWN while flying very close…2Â’ is perfect. It will of course quit flying as the speed has bleed off at the perfect time. The real key to greasers is trying not to touch down while floating very low. Let the plane touch down, donÂ’t you try to touch down. You wan t the aircraft to stall. Greaser every time. Try it.

Denis (N726CD)

3

You wan t the aircraft to stall. Greaser every time. Try it.

Try and stall everytime? Your margin of error is critical if you use this method in this bird.God forbid a fella is a bit blind and thinks he is right above the ground and he is really 10 feet agl.A stall wouldnt be good.You fly it down.Nice rate of decent but “Stalling” it you better have it nailed or you can get into real trouble.Pilots can get into trouble going for a greaser everytime.Worry about getting it on the ground with plenty of runway left.You’ll get a greaser if your good with the left arm.Remember,a good landing results from a good approach.

4

You wan t the aircraft to stall. Greaser every time. Try it.

Try and stall everytime? Your margin of error is critical if you use this method in this bird.God forbid a fella is a bit blind and thinks he is right above the ground and he is really 10 feet agl.A stall wouldnt be good.You fly it down.Nice rate of decent but “Stalling” it you better have it nailed or you can get into real trouble.Pilots can get into trouble going for a greaser everytime.Worry about getting it on the ground with plenty of runway left.You’ll get a greaser if your good with the left arm.Remember,a good landing results from a good approach.

Jeff, If anyone cannot do what I discribed, they should not be flying.

Denis(N726CD-SR22, 75 Hrs…[4,720 hours total])

5

Jeff, If anyone cannot do what I discribed, they should not be flying.

Does the stall warner sound before you touch down?

6

During my check ride with Gary Black (Cirrus test pilot) I noticed that he performed the same procedure described by Denis during landing. The wheels touched down 2 - 3 seconds after the stall warning horn went off. This is slightly different from the way Wings Aloft instructors taught (carry a little more airspeed until touchdown).

My Wings Aloft instructor was concerned that landing too slow (which in his opinion was at stall horn speed) renders the elevator useless. He added that if the plane started porpoising the elevator would be of little help.

Dan (loving 2821T after 50 hours)

You wan t the aircraft to stall. Greaser every time. Try it.

Try and stall everytime? Your margin of error is critical if you use this method in this bird.God forbid a fella is a bit blind and thinks he is right above the ground and he is really 10 feet agl.A stall wouldnt be good.You fly it down.Nice rate of decent but “Stalling” it you better have it nailed or you can get into real trouble.Pilots can get into trouble going for a greaser everytime.Worry about getting it on the ground with plenty of runway left.You’ll get a greaser if your good with the left arm.Remember,a good landing results from a good approach.

Jeff, If anyone cannot do what I discribed, they should not be flying.

Denis(N726CD-SR22, 75 Hrs…[4,720 hours total])

7

Jeff, If anyone cannot do what I discribed, they should not be flying.

Does the stall warner sound before you touch down?

Frankly Clyde, I do not know. I don’t think it does, but the sound pitch of the stall horn cannot be heard through my Lightspeed headsets. I have had a problem for years with high pitch sounds. I don’t hear my cell phone ring half the time. I’m having my Tech wire the stall horn into the intercom.

Denis

8

Does the stall warner sound before you touch down?

Frankly Clyde, I do not know

Well Denis, let me have a little wager with you. I bet that when you get the stall warner wired into your headsets (I can hear the stall warning easily even with my Lightspeed headset on, but then I have fewer total hours than you) you will find that it does NOT sound when you land with the technique you described (a perfectly good technique, I might add). To make the SR20 stall on touchdown you need the nose way up, and this is what leads to tail strikes.

IOW, a “fuill stall” landing in the SR20 is neither necessary nor desirable, and while I would endorse your landing technique, I maintain it does not stall the wing. And don’t forget that the stall warner comes in at an angle of attack less than actual stall, so even if you do hear the stall warner, it doesn’t mean the wing is stalled.

Oh, and what’s the bet? For my end, a bottle of fine Australian Shiraz.

9

Does the stall warner sound before you touch down?

Frankly Clyde, I do not know

Well Denis, let me have a little wager with you. I bet that when you get the stall warner wired into your headsets (I can hear the stall warning easily even with my Lightspeed headset on, but then I have fewer total hours than you) you will find that it does NOT sound when you land with the technique you described (a perfectly good technique, I might add). To make the SR20 stall on touchdown you need the nose way up, and this is what leads to tail strikes.

IOW, a “fuill stall” landing in the SR20 is neither necessary nor desirable, and while I would endorse your landing technique, I maintain it does not stall the wing. And don’t forget that the stall warner comes in at an angle of attack less than actual stall, so even if you do hear the stall warner, it doesn’t mean the wing is stalled.

Oh, and what’s the bet? For my end, a bottle of fine Australian Shiraz.

Clyde, I agree with you and doubted that it sounded because of the angle of attack. I’m nearly level when I touch down. I pull back slightly as it sinks to the ground, just to make it soft. In other aircraft, a 3 point landing is easy with this method, however, the Cirrus prop is fairly close to the ground. On a uneven or rough runway, I flair a little more than I normally do, just to insure protection of the prop.

Denis

10

Ok guys I for one am confused. I flew with Denis yesterday and saw him land it his way, worked well. However I’ve flown an SR20 twice at a local flight school and landed it with their “instruction”, which at this point can’t remember exactly their criteria.

So what is different about landing the SR20 than the SR22??? Clyde you mention the nose way up, and also full stall not desirable. Doesn’t sound like Denis is talking about full stall in the 22.

Thanks, Bruce

Well Denis, let me have a little wager with you. I bet that when you get the stall warner wired into your headsets (I can hear the stall warning easily even with my Lightspeed headset on, but then I have fewer total hours than you) you will find that it does NOT sound when you land with the technique you described (a perfectly good technique, I might add). To make the SR20 stall on touchdown you need the nose way up, and this is what leads to tail strikes.

IOW, a “fuill stall” landing in the SR20 is neither necessary nor desirable, and while I would endorse your landing technique, I maintain it does not stall the wing. And don’t forget that the stall warner comes in at an angle of attack less than actual stall, so even if you do hear the stall warner, it doesn’t mean the wing is stalled.

Oh, and what’s the bet? For my end, a bottle of fine Australian Shiraz.

11

Ok guys I for one am confused. I flew with Denis yesterday and saw him land it his way, worked well. However I’ve flown an SR20 twice at a local flight school and landed it with their “instruction”, which at this point can’t remember exactly their criteria.

So what is different about landing the SR20 than the SR22??? Clyde you mention the nose way up, and also full stall not desirable. Doesn’t sound like Denis is talking about full stall in the 22.

Thanks, Bruce

Burce, I don’t see why the technique would not be the same on the SR20, but I would think instead of 80K at the fence, I would guess 75K. That speed is best answered by a SR20 pilot.

Denis

Well Denis, let me have a little wager with you. I bet that when you get the stall warner wired into your headsets (I can hear the stall warning easily even with my Lightspeed headset on, but then I have fewer total hours than you) you will find that it does NOT sound when you land with the technique you described (a perfectly good technique, I might add). To make the SR20 stall on touchdown you need the nose way up, and this is what leads to tail strikes.

IOW, a “fuill stall” landing in the SR20 is neither necessary nor desirable, and while I would endorse your landing technique, I maintain it does not stall the wing. And don’t forget that the stall warner comes in at an angle of attack less than actual stall, so even if you do hear the stall warner, it doesn’t mean the wing is stalled.

Oh, and what’s the bet? For my end, a bottle of fine Australian Shiraz.

12

Ok guys I for one am confused

Don’t worry, Bruce. This particular thread just came about because Denis said in his landing technique description that “you want the aircraft to stall”, and I picked him up on that, and we now both agree that when he lands, the aircraft does not stall. His technique will work just fine on an SR20. I aim for 80 knots on final, but I’m not looking at the ASI when I cross the fence so I can’t tell you what speed I’m at there.

But the basic idea in either model is to get the plane into the correct slightly nose-up attitude about 2 feet above the runway, and hold that attitude while the speed bleeds off and it settles ever so gently onto the runway - as Denis says, greasers every time. The hardest part is judging your height in the flare, but if you make a point of looking at the far end of the strip, and practice, it gets easier.

13

Thanks Denis and Clyde

Ok guys I for one am confused

Don’t worry, Bruce. This particular thread just came about because Denis said in his landing technique description that “you want the aircraft to stall”, and I picked him up on that, and we now both agree that when he lands, the aircraft does not stall. His technique will work just fine on an SR20. I aim for 80 knots on final, but I’m not looking at the ASI when I cross the fence so I can’t tell you what speed I’m at there.

But the basic idea in either model is to get the plane into the correct slightly nose-up attitude about 2 feet above the runway, and hold that attitude while the speed bleeds off and it settles ever so gently onto the runway - as Denis says, greasers every time. The hardest part is judging your height in the flare, but if you make a point of looking at the far end of the strip, and practice, it gets easier.

14

Denis, do you still have your weight and balance calculator you are willing to share?

Peter Riechers
Peter.riechers@gmail.com

15

Uh, you just posted to a 12-year-old thread, so I think you’ll do better in a Member forum! Do a Forum search for “weight and balance and calculator” and I’ll bet you get some good hits!

16

Hey, Gordon!

Nothing like a 12 year old thread to bring out the old timers in a free public forum!