you know i can’t resist that RJ!
how much? when?
Haven’t decided. I want to make them part of a speed kit which includes a few other pieces. At a minimum I want 5 knots
How about i said i want 10kts, Santa RJ?
Well, I’ve had this conversation before with the group. It’s a cost consideration. At today’s prices, it costs upwards of $2000 a knot to achieve any reasonable performance goals. That price point carries a lot of resistance. The advantage to drag reduction speed increase, is you only pay once. What you get is 10 knots faster at no additional fuel burn and no increased stress on the engine (and resulting lowered engine life). The question is, how big is that market?
RJ;
With all due respect, your goal of gaining 5 knots for gap seals at $2000 a knot means a set of gap seals would cost $10,000. I cannot speak for everyone but I would guess a market for that would be close to zero. I also question whether it is even possible to gain 5 knots working on the gap seals alone.
I think you may be referring to a more widespread “speed mod” than just gap seals but this thread was all gap seals and you said “you had them”.
Hi Brian
I didn’t communicate well. There is NO WAY we could get 5 knots from gap seals on a Cirrus.
(Without rewriting the laws of physics). I think we have a world record result at 2.5 knots for that kind of a wing.
What I’m saying is I just don’t think any kit is worth marketing unless you deliver at least 5 knots. Such a kit has quite a few parts and 10 knots would have even more. We’ve done it. But like I said, it’s upwards of $2000/kt and as you implied, the market is too small.
RJ,
we got that, but we like day dreaming.
set of gap seals costs 60$+S&H for a 22, looks like i could get the first 2kts for less than 4K$
how much will it cost for my 20?
Louis
Actually, we can get about 5 knots with the kit we have now, gap seals and hinge covers. BUT I can’t guarentee that yet ,because I only have a test sample of one. I won’t test further until I can be certain there is a market and thus far there has not proven to be one
i could be your test pilot
Hmmmmm
You realize you would have to put your aircraft in the Experimental category?
we need to have a chat. will call you later if you’re available
RJ,
I’d be really interested in the gap seals and hinge covers for my 20. If you need a couple of test beds, count me in.
Kevin
Hi Kevin
The hold back is the size of the community. A small STC which affects airframe takes about $250k to go through certification. The adoption community for performance products is generally about 15% of owners. Each model requires a different STC. (Yes, I do know that sounds crazy, but that’s the way it is.) For argument sake, let’s say there are one thousand SR20’s like yours and 150 owners would buy the product. That’s about $1700 per kit in certification costs before you add the cost of manufacturing the product. Did I mention the cost of insurance? Anyway, the cost of the kit would hover about $10K which would return development costs in about 6.5 years, after which the profit would start.
However, if we modify the equation and charge $20K per kit, we would get a return in less than 3 years. Are you up for that?
Now you know why we try to size the community and the adoption curve. IF we get a large community response, we continue with product development. We really need to know how big the early adopter audience is in order to evaluate the market.
You and Louis make two.
YIKES!!!
Keep me on the list, just in case something in your ROI scenario changes.
I just phoned Jamon to warn him!
Is there any scope for a new model in this? Reference FAR 21.9: [emphasis added]
§ 21.9 Replacement and modification articles.
(a) If a person knows, or should know, that a replacement or modification article is reasonably likely to be installed on a type-certificated product, the person may not produce that article unless it is—
(1) Produced under a type certificate;
(2) Produced under an FAA production approval;
(3) A standard part (such as a nut or bolt) manufactured in compliance with a government or established industry specification;
(4) A commercial part as defined in §21.1 of this part;
(5) Produced by an owner or operator for maintaining or altering that owner or operator’s product; or
So parts produced by an owner or operator don’t need a PMA etc.
Now, with 3D printing, it seems producing a wide range of parts is coming within the reach of the owner/operator. So RJ, how about going into the licensing of 3D templates business?
Too funny!
Why don’t you G1 SR20 guys just put gap seals on? The newer 20’s have them and the wing/aileron installation is the same. They are like $10 and take 20 min to install.
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Well, not to put to fine a point on it but it’s kind of like asking why don’t you put the new G3 nose gear on your SR22.
- They are not the same and there is a good reason the old ones don’t have those gap seals.
- It’s never fun when the gap seal binds up the aileron
- It’s illegal and we’re not just talking a fine.
Other then that…
What is the good reason they don’t have gap seals?
The SR22/G3 SR20 gap seal was specifically designed to be impossible to bind.
And they ailerons ARE the same.
Not sure on legalities, but maybe someone can explain why this wouldn’t be a minor alteration or qualify for a field approval.
Are you implying everyone who is has old G1’s who installed horizontal fairings should be locked up? Seems like the same type of thing to me
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