I’m looking for some real candid advice on whether to purchase a great SR22 G1 (six pack) with B package and 800 hours, vs a G2 with similar hours, but PFD. I really have no problem with the steam guages, and wonder what other considerations there are between the two planes (the G2 is an 04 model). The price difference is about 80,000—the G1 is a “deal”, so I’m leaning toward the G1. What’s the REAL story here? G1 owners, what do you like and NOT like about your model compared to the G2? Do they fly essentially the same except for the instrumentation?? Help me decide, please
I have a G1 6 pack (SN 0009, B config) that I bought new in 2001. I would never spend 80K for just a Avidyne PFD. But in fairness there is more to the G1 vs G2 debate than a PFD. As far as flying qualities of the two planes, they are the same. They have the same wing and the G2 for all its marketing cache was a simply a retooled fuselage to reduce parts count and assembly time for Cirrus. The G2 tends to be a couple knots faster and has a better refined interior, so whats that worth to you? The doors have a different latching system, but frankly you can find pilots that prefer the G1 over the G2 and vice versa so its a personal taste thing.
I would list the options side by side to make a detailed comparison. But if you don’t see anything thats worth 80K to you, well the answer is pretty easy. But there is a rub. Some of the apparently subtle differences are pretty expensive ones, so choose wisely.
Here are some things you should research:
Does the G1 have a 4 or 6 point mount? If it has the old 4 point engine mount that is a 10K upgrade. Some contend they don’t need it, but it does make it run smoother.
Does it have a Avidyne MFD? The Arnav units are good units, but hard to update and you cannot put other things like CMax on them.
Do either of them have the WAAS upgrade done? Do you care? A WAAS upgrade to a G1 is about 8K now, nearly twice that for the PFD.
Do either have options like CMax (charts), EMax (engine monitoring), XM Weather, Stormscope, Traffic (either TIS or Skywatch)? Do you care - some are real expensive to add.
Look at the logs, has either been a maintainance problem?
But on flying qualities alone, save your money because they fly the same. If you would like more details call me at 623-570-1320 and I would be happy to fill in details. Good luck.
First off, since you’re a member you would do better posting on the member’s side since you will get far more responses (many members never look at the guest discussion).
I bought a G1 in 2001 and have flown it now for 1300+ hours. I’m not sure what the “B” package is but mine has 2 G430s, a Sandel and an ARNAV MFD.
There is nothing about the plane I don’t like. It has been extremely reliable and is fun to fly. Certainly the PFD models are far sexier but they won’t do anything you can’t do with the G1. Even if the plane you’re looking at is ARNAV equipped it will be more than adequate. The useful load is higher than the newer planes but the fit and finish of the newer models is superior to the originals. That said my plane has been hangared since day one and cosmetically is still very nice.
The reason I’ve never been tempted to “upgrade” is simply that I don’t think the PFD, the Avidyne and the myriad of other minor changes are worth the cost. The planes all go about the same speed and all handle the same.
If you do get the G1 be sure if you get an ARNAV one that it has the EMM (Engine monitoring module), or if it is Avidyne equipped be sure it includes E-max.
“B” package was the Sandel, 2 430’s and the 55X. Sounds like yours is a B. Mine is a B too, but I have changed the Arnav for an Avidyne (back in about 2002). All the earliest deliveries in 2001 (mine was May 2nd) were B models, its the only configuration they made at first.
Guys, thanks for the quick responses. The G1 is a 2002 model with 800TT, the Avidyne Flight Max EX 5000, TCAS, stormscope, sandel, dual 430s (non-waas) and all the B items mentionned, including ALT preselect on the 55x. It has been hangered and maintained by an authorized cirrus center. It does have the 4 point mount, but I don’t know if it vibrates or not. Hope to fly in it soon. What would be a fair sales price for this aircraft? Better asked, what would you offer if you were buying? Thanks. F.
Sounds like a nice find. On the mount, all 4 points vibrate more than a 6 mount - but some planes were known to shake objectionably, some were pretty subtle. The key question is do you find it objectionable? Even if you don’t, don’t go ride in a 6 point cause when you see the difference you will have to have it. I can say that because mine was a 4 point and I did not think it was a shaker. But I changed my mind after flying several newer Cirri and seeing the difference.
Price, well I have not seen enough sales prices in this market - but we all know they have gone down. I don’t feel qualified to hazard a guess, maybe someone else can. But in this market make an aggressive offer, cash is king and there are not enough buyers out there.
I’m another G1 six-pack owner. In fact, I specifically searched for a six-pack plane with TKS when I bought my current plane (there aren’t that many of those, PFD started just about the same time as TKS). Here are my reasons why:
Six pack is likely to be lower maintenance cost. If your PFD goes bad and you’re not under warranty, it will be a fortune. If you pay for the warranty, that’s another $1500 per year, more-or-less. Also, if and when the PFD stops being supported - either because Avidyne goes away or because it’s 10 years from now and R15 is out, and they can’t repair the legacy PFDs effectively - you may be out of luck. I suspect the mechanical gauges will be able to be repaired relatively cheaply for years to come.
Secondly, I feel the six pack degrades more gracefully in the event of failure. For most any instrument failure, you’ll lose just one instrument, with the remaining 5 working just fine, so the “partial panel” scan is pretty much your normal scan minus 1. If the PFD fails, you have the backup instruments, but that’s a BIG change in scan to go from the PFD to the 3 steam gauges. Also, you have no NAV guidance (no CDI/OBS) if the PFD fails. Of course, there are systems failures (static system, for example) which can take out multiple instruments but that happens regardless of the instrumentation.
Finally, of course, the up-front cost was lower for the six-pack than a comparable PFD plane. Though these days some PFD planes can be found pretty cheap!
Anyway, I realize I’m in the minority, and I’m sure the vast majority of PFD pilots can and probably will argue my points above - I’m not claiming my opinion is “right”, but that was my thought process when I was making the same decision a few years ago.
My feeling about how Frank might choose echoes what other COPANs have said in the past on the Member Forums, namely, buy the most plane you can comfortably afford. You’ll find plenty of ways to justify your particular choice. As Heinlein so well put it, man is a rationalizing animal.
Ah and as such Sherri and I started out looking for a 2002 and wound up with a 2006 and my retirement delayed. Neither of us cared for the PFD initially. An instructor explained that we would love it in the end and we do. That said, a G1 has the same room and the same speed. Here are some of the items I do like on our G2:
TKS for emergencies (Sherri would prefer the weight savings of not having it)
Better interior fit and finish. Sherri said I am too biased against G1’s but I flew one a long time and the plastic didn’t stand up well when outside in the sun.
Better maintenance access points
Better locks especially on the baggage door
Better transponder signal due to ground plane
6 point engine mount
Better but still less than stellar instrument wiring (G1 instruments failed regularly; getting Jim Barker upgrade)
Oil door stays down in flight
Air bags (Sherri hates them)
Tinted windows (our kids’ favorite improvement)
Heavy duty brakes
There are many more items and I love my plane but $80K is a LOT and a 2002 B package is a great plane. I might do the 6-point upgrade to reduce annoyances and improve reliability. It is anecdotal but a friend with a fleet swears the 6-point mount improves avionics reliability by reducing vibration. Especially on a 2002 I would get GAMI’s. All of this will leave a lot left from the $80K. In a couple of years if you feel the need get the Aspen upgrade. Either way make your decision and then don’t look back.
As a prior 2002 SR22 G1 owner I can only say that it was a great airplane. As mentioned by many others to justify 80k extra for PFD doesn’t make alot of sense IMO. The speed and performance difference is minimal at best. Mine had a 4 point mount and I never had a issue with vibration and was very comfortable with it. If you read prior threads about some of the maintenence head aches with avionics and whistles and bells you will see that simple is better. And lets face it the “B” package is still far more advanced then most other planes out there.
I think this is a little overstated. I paid just over $2000 for 3 year warranty on both my PFD and my MFD in December. I realize they were running a special where you could get 3 years for the price of 2. In addition, I realize that they have since gone up on the pricing but still the 2 display system is $2500 for 2 years, $3600 for 3 years. I wouldn’t be surprised if Avidyne continues to allow the 2 year price for the 3 year warranty. Meanwhile the MFD is $500 for 1 year, 750 for 2 years and $1000 for 3 years.
Probably all the salient points have been covered, but I’d like to add a comment or two for emphasis.
First, the most important negative for a G1 (IMO) is when it comes time to replace the parachute, you have to remove the hatch cover, then redo the bondo and attempt to get a good paint color and sheen match. With the G2, access to the parachute is thru the baggage compartment.
As for the PFD, you can get a PFD in a G1 if that’s your preference. Some are for sale at good pricing.
I much prefer the G1 doors. When they’re closed, they’re closed and will not pop open. Just don’t slam them. The G2/G3 doors seem flimsy to me and I don’t care for the locking mechanism. As for fit and finish, certainly later models got better and are better. But how good do you need? Also, the airbag shoulder harnesses are uncomfortable to me, even if a safety feature, and require periodic maintenance that’s not cheap.
Finally, I’ve had more than one SC maintenance manager tell me that Cirrus got it right with the G1’s. They’re pretty maintenance free when compared with later versions. It’s been a long time G1’s were affected by a SB, unlike the G3’s and later G2’s.
Sounds like you know a lot more of the specifics that I do, so I’ll take your word for it. When I made the post I just quickly looked at Avidyne’s site and saw prices ranging from $1800 per year (for 1 year coverage) to $1200 per year ($3600 for 3 years), which is why I said “$1500 per year, more-or-less”. I didn’t look into any specials, or do any additional research.
Guilty as charged, I probably subconciously feel compelled to rationalize my decision when I see all these fancy new-fangled planes being talked about most of the time on the forum! [:)] FWIW, though, at the time I bought my plane, I could have afforded a PFD model, but really did choose a six-pack for the reasons mentioned above.
You are right, that is a uncomfortable thing to think about. OTOH, I am not sure its all that expensive and after having the WAAS upgrade done for antenna #2. I am convinced a good shop can do it so you cannot notice. I cannot find where the composite or paint work was done from color, sheen or smoothness of the composite. And I think that was more traumatic in that it was a much larger area. Of course that assumes the plane is hangared (mine has since day 1). A non hangared plane after 10 years will absolutely show a difference.
That mirrors my experience. I literally have not had any of the issues you read about in Cirrus maintenance. None of them. I did have to replace an Alt 2 and a MCU (I suspect a related failure that one took the other out) about 4 or 5 years ago outside of warranty. I got an upgraded one and its been fine since. It really has been a trouble free aircraft with a 100% dispatch rate over 8 years. That is one of the reasons I have not upgraded it, it is just so reliable. My annual was under 2000 bucks this year, that included adding a flight time HOBBS. Without that discretionary item, it would have been just about 1400. I had NO repairs or other maintenance spending on last year other than the annual, oil changes or discretionary items.
Just a couple questions to the G1 owners:
Does your airplane vibrate to the point it’s annoying to you or passengers? (assume the 4 point mount)
Do you like the Sandel 3308?
If the Garmins are non-waas currently, what is the cost to upgrade, and do I have to do both units, or only the #1?
How much time should I reasonably expect to get comfortable flying this aircraft. I am IFR rated with over 1300 hours including Mooney and Commanche time.
What should I expect to pay for insurance with 1—: 100k sublimi and 2— 1 million smooth?
Can this plane realistically be flown in and out of 2400 strips (assuming standard conditions)?
What are the real cruise and fuel flow numbers you guys get, at 8-10k feet? Assume 75% and 65%
Do the G1 engines run reasonably cool, or is it necessary to “baby them” with step climbs?
I’m going to make a decision soon, and thank everyone for their help. I hope to become a full member if I buy one of these aircraft.
If you are even considering this aircraft, pay for the membership now and search over 300,000 posts for information. All those questions have been asked and answered hundreds of times.
In order of your questions:
Mine was a 4 point, I converted it to a 6 point. Only one person ever commented on vibrations. You guessed it, it was another pilot. It is smoother now, but acceptable then.
Yes, the Sandel is a great unit. Some folks have had problems with too short a service loop on harness in the back. Mine has been rock solid for a 1000 hours. I keep photos with me of the settings though, if you forget to turn off the master and drain the battery (I never have, but a shop did it to mine once) it will mess up the settings. Its very flyable and short of a PFD its the next best thing.
WAAS, Garmin gets 3K per box - you can do one or both. If you do one they will not crossfill anymore. Then you have to put the antennas outside (and there is a big controversy over this). Done the Cirrus way its probably another 3 or 4 K for a G1. Or you can do the number 2 antenna inside and save more than half of that. Do a search on that, lots of info on COPA about that.
Plan a 100 hours. You will be comfortable in less, but I go into any new plane expecting a 100 hours. The first 100 TIT is the most statistically dangerous.
I just renewed for 2530. 1Mil, 250 sublimits - hull @ 200K. But I have almost 1000 in type. Expect to pay more initially and it will come down fast with TT given your TT time and ratings. Fly it a lot the first year.
Some would argue with me, but 2400 feet is plenty. But you are gonna have to learn to land without the extra speed too many Cirrus pilots tend to put on and apparently too many instructors encourage. Its a bad habit in general, but a deadly one on short strips.
If I fly 75% ROP at 8000 feet I get book if the plane is clean (180 TAS) on 17GPH. I pretty much fly LOP at closer to 65% most of the time and at 8000 that is around 170 TAS on 13.6 or so. Nice trade off.
G1’s have several cowls over their production run. The early ones have a three piece cowl (a top and a two piece bottom), they flow lots of air and never run hot. Later Cirrus tightened up the cowl flow to gain a knot or two and they run a little hotter (you can recognize that by a 2 piece cowl - a top and a bottom). I flew my early one (3 piece) in the desert SW and NEVER see high CHT’s. I flew out of Las Vegas when it was 122 degrees (no kidding) and CHT’s were about 360 and I did not baby the climb (I was looking for cooler air). I typically see low 320’s in ROP cruise, around 300 on LOP cruise and about 270 CHT on VERY LOP cruise.
You need to join COPA. I now fly a G2 2006 but can answer some of your questions.
1. Does your airplane vibrate to the point it’s annoying to you or passengers? (assume the 4 point mount)
Noticeably rough but compared to other planes passengers will focus on the room (a positive), ease of entry (a positive) and how loud the plane is (a negative).
2. Do you like the Sandel 3308?
I like the PFD better but the 3308 is great. Don’t get the ones with the Century HSI. As 6-packs go this is great equipment. To get better you have to go to the Aspen.
3. If the Garmins are non-waas currently, what is the cost to upgrade, and do I have to do both units, or only the #1?
Radio upgrade is $3K per radio. If you don’t upgrade both then you can’t crossfill and database subscriptions are confusing since the WAAS and non-WAAS are different. Apart form the radios, you will need composite work done if you do it the Cirrus SB way. Some have done it cheaper ways. Join COPA and read the threads for the details. PFD’s need a hardware upgrade so a PFD plane is more expensive to update.
4. How much time should I reasonably expect to get comfortable flying this aircraft. I am IFR rated with over 1300 hours including Mooney and Commanche time.
The you will adjust quickly. If you know the Garmin 430 then you are pretty much there. Side yoke takes minutes. Site picture takes more time. Yes, you can see the runway ahead even in the flair.
5. What should I expect to pay for insurance with 1—: 100k sublimi and 2— 1 million smooth?
Driven by hull value and similar to other planes like Mooney.
6. Can this plane realistically be flown in and out of 2400 strips (assuming standard conditions)?
It’s been fine going in and out of KCDK.
7. What are the real cruise and fuel flow numbers you guys get, at 8-10k feet? Assume 75% and 65%
Clean expect 175-180 kts at 8K’ ROP on about 18 GPH. Get GAMI’s and go 170 at 8K on 14.5 GPH LOP. These numbers are off the top of my head. There are some better charts over on the members’ side. At 17K’ run 164 TAS on 10.5 GPH.
8. Do the G1 engines run reasonably cool, or is it necessary to “baby them” with step climbs?
CHT’s tent to run low 300’s except in steep climbs on very hot days. When it is 105 in Las Vegas and you are in a Vx climb you have to be careful since you can approach 400.
I’m going to make a decision soon, and thank everyone for their help. I hope to become a full member if I buy one of these aircraft.
Join COPA now. It is a minor expense relative to buying a plane. Join the clubs of the other planes you are considering. get the inside scoop.
Frank - I’m a tweener - Got one of the early G1 PFD airplanes. s/n 0597 and have flown it around 1000 hours. So - I can answer some of your questions.
I have a four point mount. Runs smoother than any other GA airplane I’ve flown. I’ve ridden in some 6 points - smoother yet. I’ll get a quote for an upgrade when I overhaul, but not before.
I just got the WAAS update done. Expensive part was the PFD, but I purchased under the Garmin intro price of $1500/unit. I think it is 3k now plus other stuff. Read the forums about the #2 antennae. There's a choice to be made there with implicactions. I haven’t used WAAS much other than training. Hard to say if it was worth it…
4)You are an experienced guy in high performance aircraft. I’m thinking no more than 8 hours of transition training and you will be pretty comfortable.
5)Your time in type will hurt you a little bit insurance wise the first couple years, but your experience overall is a huge plus. There’s a database in COPApedia with SR22 insurance rates - just do a COPApedia search on “insurance” and you’ll find the link. My insurance this year was $3522 for $280k hull value and 100k sublimit. Your G1 hull value would be lower, but time in type would drive your rate up a bit.
6)Yes - if you maintain proficiency
7)I run almost exclusively LOP in cruise. Yesterday going to the cabin I was 172 ktas at 15.6 gph. Routinely see 170ktas at 13.5 at higher alts.
8)The only time you have to be a little careful with climbs and temps is on very hot days - over 90. Instead of climbing at 800 fpm, you slow down to 500fpm.
Good luck with your decison.
I’ll echo the other’s comments. My plane is SN063.
I have the 4 point mount and while there is vibration it is no more than in most GA planes. I’ve flown planes with the 6 point mount and don’t see that much of a difference. There is however a variation among airplanes and some with the 4 point mount may vibrate far more than mine. I have yet to have anyone complain about it. Fly it and see.
I love the Sandel. That said when it fails I would probably replace it with the Aspen equipment, but I have no desire to replace it before it fails.
It cost me $5000 to upgrade to WASS. If you only do 1 you will be unable to crossfeed. It will cost more now since the Garmin upgrade price is higher. Since I have an ARNAV plane there were no issues with Avidyne.
With your experience I suspect you would be comfortable in 10-20 hours max. Both the Comanche and Mooney require good speed control on landing so does the Cirrus. It took me about 5 minutes to become comfortable with the side stick. Transitioning to a G1 with the 6 pack will take less time than learning the PFD. The 6 pack is really not very different from any of the high performance singles in terms of operation - as long as you have good speed control on landing. All that assumes you are familiar and comfortable with the Garmin 430.
I pay about $3100/year for one million smooth, 200K hull. I have >5000 hours and 1300 Cirrus hours.
I cruise at 65-70% power routinely at 8-10K and get a TAS between 165-170 KTS depending on temperature, weight etc. The fuel flow averages around 14 gph LOP, give or take a few tenths, again depending on environmental variables.
I have never seen a CHT above 350F. They will get there in a prolonged low airspeed climb on a hot day. Usually they level off in cruise at 300-310 max. The airplane has great baffling and the engine runs cooler than in any other model I’ve ever flown. If you fly ROP the CHTs will be higher by about 20-30 degrees.