Springfield Accident

Guest Discussion
1

Today I took a trip to one of my frequent short cross-country spots - Springfield MO. I had actually tried to avoid going there, because of the accident, but it was the best weather direction today. Unexpedtedly, it had some areas of interesting information.

When I landed, the controller wanted to know lots of information about the plane, such as how much HP, does it have speed brakes, etc. I taxied by the plane that the SR22 hit. The damage was unbelieveable. The plane was about the size of a DC3, and the middle of it had a huge, gaping hole. I later found out that they had to use a jaws of life type of device to extricate the 22. Also, the 22 had to travel significant distance laterally to hit this plane, crossing over a grass area, a taxiway, more grass, and some ramp area.

At the FBO, they brought me pictures. Apparently as the 22 crossed the grass, it lost one of the main landing gears. The FBO personnel were amazed that anyone survived, and one person commented that if it were a metal plane, the people and the plane would be totally gone.

Here’s the part that I wasn’t aware of - the co-pilot (husband) is a CFI, and the pilot (wife) is a student pilot. Perhaps this isn’t factual, but the FBO personnel were adament about this. Hmmm. Also, apparently at some point they did try to do a go-around. The word there is that after some very hard ground contact, the plane bounced, went up, and went down nose first after that. Where the go-around attempt took place in all this I don’t know.

All said, I expect that the FAA report, when issued, will be sobering.

2

I was visiting Cirrus in Duluth on Friday June 15, and I met the husband of the couple involved. He said that he was a student pilot (with about 20 hours, I think he said), and his wife was “there to pick up her plane”. As we talked, an SR22 overflew the runway at about 50’ altitude, and he said “that’s my wife”. I hope they recover quickly.

Today I took a trip to one of my frequent short cross-country spots - Springfield MO. I had actually tried to avoid going there, because of the accident, but it was the best weather direction today. Unexpedtedly, it had some areas of interesting information.

When I landed, the controller wanted to know lots of information about the plane, such as how much HP, does it have speed brakes, etc. I taxied by the plane that the SR22 hit. The damage was unbelieveable. The plane was about the size of a DC3, and the middle of it had a huge, gaping hole. I later found out that they had to use a jaws of life type of device to extricate the 22. Also, the 22 had to travel significant distance laterally to hit this plane, crossing over a grass area, a taxiway, more grass, and some ramp area.

At the FBO, they brought me pictures. Apparently as the 22 crossed the grass, it lost one of the main landing gears. The FBO personnel were amazed that anyone survived, and one person commented that if it were a metal plane, the people and the plane would be totally gone.

Here’s the part that I wasn’t aware of - the co-pilot (husband) is a CFI, and the pilot (wife) is a student pilot. Perhaps this isn’t factual, but the FBO personnel were adament about this. Hmmm. Also, apparently at some point they did try to do a go-around. The word there is that after some very hard ground contact, the plane bounced, went up, and went down nose first after that. Where the go-around attempt took place in all this I don’t know.

All said, I expect that the FAA report, when issued, will be sobering.

3

I also was there the week of June 11th and met Barbara and Joey Barquin. Joey told me that Barbara was the pilot with about 200 hours and he was the student. It is sobering to meet people and here of their accident, thankfully they are alright. Rick Kummerow

Today I took a trip to one of my frequent short cross-country spots - Springfield MO. I had actually tried to avoid going there, because of the accident, but it was the best weather direction today. Unexpedtedly, it had some areas of interesting information.

When I landed, the controller wanted to know lots of information about the plane, such as how much HP, does it have speed brakes, etc. I taxied by the plane that the SR22 hit. The damage was unbelieveable. The plane was about the size of a DC3, and the middle of it had a huge, gaping hole. I later found out that they had to use a jaws of life type of device to extricate the 22. Also, the 22 had to travel significant distance laterally to hit this plane, crossing over a grass area, a taxiway, more grass, and some ramp area.

At the FBO, they brought me pictures. Apparently as the 22 crossed the grass, it lost one of the main landing gears. The FBO personnel were amazed that anyone survived, and one person commented that if it were a metal plane, the people and the plane would be totally gone.

Here’s the part that I wasn’t aware of - the co-pilot (husband) is a CFI, and the pilot (wife) is a student pilot. Perhaps this isn’t factual, but the FBO personnel were adament about this. Hmmm. Also, apparently at some point they did try to do a go-around. The word there is that after some very hard ground contact, the plane bounced, went up, and went down nose first after that. Where the go-around attempt took place in all this I don’t know.

All said, I expect that the FAA report, when issued, will be sobering.

4

Today I took a trip to one of my frequent short cross-country spots - Springfield MO. I had actually tried to avoid going there, because of the accident, but it was the best weather direction today. Unexpedtedly, it had some areas of interesting information.

When I landed, the controller wanted to know lots of information about the plane, such as how much HP, does it have speed brakes, etc. I taxied by the plane that the SR22 hit. The damage was unbelieveable. The plane was about the size of a DC3, and the middle of it had a huge, gaping hole. I later found out that they had to use a jaws of life type of device to extricate the 22. Also, the 22 had to travel significant distance laterally to hit this plane, crossing over a grass area, a taxiway, more grass, and some ramp area.

At the FBO, they brought me pictures. Apparently as the 22 crossed the grass, it lost one of the main landing gears. The FBO personnel were amazed that anyone survived, and one person commented that if it were a metal plane, the people and the plane would be totally gone.

Here’s the part that I wasn’t aware of - the co-pilot (husband) is a CFI, and the pilot (wife) is a student pilot. Perhaps this isn’t factual, but the FBO personnel were adament about this. Hmmm. Also, apparently at some point they did try to do a go-around. The word there is that after some very hard ground contact, the plane bounced, went up, and went down nose first after that. Where the go-around attempt took place in all this I don’t know.

All said, I expect that the FAA report, when issued, will be sobering.

5

Looks like the people at the FBO were in error on who was the student and who was PIC.

I was visiting Cirrus in Duluth on Friday June 15, and I met the husband of the couple involved. He said that he was a student pilot (with about 20 hours, I think he said), and his wife was “there to pick up her plane”. As we talked, an SR22 overflew the runway at about 50’ altitude, and he said “that’s my wife”. I hope they recover quickly.

Today I took a trip to one of my frequent short cross-country spots - Springfield MO. I had actually tried to avoid going there, because of the accident, but it was the best weather direction today. Unexpedtedly, it had some areas of interesting information.

When I landed, the controller wanted to know lots of information about the plane, such as how much HP, does it have speed brakes, etc. I taxied by the plane that the SR22 hit. The damage was unbelieveable. The plane was about the size of a DC3, and the middle of it had a huge, gaping hole. I later found out that they had to use a jaws of life type of device to extricate the 22. Also, the 22 had to travel significant distance laterally to hit this plane, crossing over a grass area, a taxiway, more grass, and some ramp area.

At the FBO, they brought me pictures. Apparently as the 22 crossed the grass, it lost one of the main landing gears. The FBO personnel were amazed that anyone survived, and one person commented that if it were a metal plane, the people and the plane would be totally gone.

Here’s the part that I wasn’t aware of - the co-pilot (husband) is a CFI, and the pilot (wife) is a student pilot. Perhaps this isn’t factual, but the FBO personnel were adament about this. Hmmm. Also, apparently at some point they did try to do a go-around. The word there is that after some very hard ground contact, the plane bounced, went up, and went down nose first after that. Where the go-around attempt took place in all this I don’t know.

All said, I expect that the FAA report, when issued, will be sobering.

6

Looks like the people at the FBO were in error on who was the student and who was PIC.

I was visiting Cirrus in Duluth on Friday June 15, and I met the husband of the couple involved. He said that he was a student pilot (with about 20 hours, I think he said), and his wife was “there to pick up her plane”. As we talked, an SR22 overflew the runway at about 50’ altitude, and he said “that’s my wife”. I hope they recover quickly.

Today I took a trip to one of my frequent short cross-country spots - Springfield MO. I had actually tried to avoid going there, because of the accident, but it was the best weather direction today. Unexpedtedly, it had some areas of interesting information.

When I landed, the controller wanted to know lots of information about the plane, such as how much HP, does it have speed brakes, etc. I taxied by the plane that the SR22 hit. The damage was unbelieveable. The plane was about the size of a DC3, and the middle of it had a huge, gaping hole. I later found out that they had to use a jaws of life type of device to extricate the 22. Also, the 22 had to travel significant distance laterally to hit this plane, crossing over a grass area, a taxiway, more grass, and some ramp area.

At the FBO, they brought me pictures. Apparently as the 22 crossed the grass, it lost one of the main landing gears. The FBO personnel were amazed that anyone survived, and one person commented that if it were a metal plane, the people and the plane would be totally gone.

Here’s the part that I wasn’t aware of - the co-pilot (husband) is a CFI, and the pilot (wife) is a student pilot. Perhaps this isn’t factual, but the FBO personnel were adament about this. Hmmm. Also, apparently at some point they did try to do a go-around. The word there is that after some very hard ground contact, the plane bounced, went up, and went down nose first after that. Where the go-around attempt took place in all this I don’t know.

All said, I expect that the FAA report, when issued, will be sobering.

7

If this is true…sadly…no one with 200 hours and a student should be in a high performance plane like the SR22…if the insurance co’s DIDN’T write policies with 'inexperience ‘at any price’…these people wouldn’t be in the air with this type of plane PERIOD!

I also was there the week of June 11th and met Barbara and Joey Barquin. Joey told me that Barbara was the pilot with about 200 hours and he was the student. It is sobering to meet people and here of their accident, thankfully they are alright. Rick Kummerow

Today I took a trip to one of my frequent short cross-country spots - Springfield MO. I had actually tried to avoid going there, because of the accident, but it was the best weather direction today. Unexpedtedly, it had some areas of interesting information.

When I landed, the controller wanted to know lots of information about the plane, such as how much HP, does it have speed brakes, etc. I taxied by the plane that the SR22 hit. The damage was unbelieveable. The plane was about the size of a DC3, and the middle of it had a huge, gaping hole. I later found out that they had to use a jaws of life type of device to extricate the 22. Also, the 22 had to travel significant distance laterally to hit this plane, crossing over a grass area, a taxiway, more grass, and some ramp area.

At the FBO, they brought me pictures. Apparently as the 22 crossed the grass, it lost one of the main landing gears. The FBO personnel were amazed that anyone survived, and one person commented that if it were a metal plane, the people and the plane would be totally gone.

Here’s the part that I wasn’t aware of - the co-pilot (husband) is a CFI, and the pilot (wife) is a student pilot. Perhaps this isn’t factual, but the FBO personnel were adament about this. Hmmm. Also, apparently at some point they did try to do a go-around. The word there is that after some very hard ground contact, the plane bounced, went up, and went down nose first after that. Where the go-around attempt took place in all this I don’t know.

All said, I expect that the FAA report, when issued, will be sobering.

8

If this is true…sadly…no one with 200 hours and a student should be in a high performance plane like the SR22…if the insurance co’s DIDN’T write policies with 'inexperience ‘at any price’…these people wouldn’t be in the air with this type of plane PERIOD!

I also was there the week of June 11th and met Barbara and Joey Barquin. Joey told me that Barbara was the pilot with about 200 hours and he was the student. It is sobering to meet people and here of their accident, thankfully they are alright. Rick Kummerow

Today I took a trip to one of my frequent short cross-country spots - Springfield MO. I had actually tried to avoid going there, because of the accident, but it was the best weather direction today. Unexpedtedly, it had some areas of interesting information.

When I landed, the controller wanted to know lots of information about the plane, such as how much HP, does it have speed brakes, etc. I taxied by the plane that the SR22 hit. The damage was unbelieveable. The plane was about the size of a DC3, and the middle of it had a huge, gaping hole. I later found out that they had to use a jaws of life type of device to extricate the 22. Also, the 22 had to travel significant distance laterally to hit this plane, crossing over a grass area, a taxiway, more grass, and some ramp area.

At the FBO, they brought me pictures. Apparently as the 22 crossed the grass, it lost one of the main landing gears. The FBO personnel were amazed that anyone survived, and one person commented that if it were a metal plane, the people and the plane would be totally gone.

Here’s the part that I wasn’t aware of - the co-pilot (husband) is a CFI, and the pilot (wife) is a student pilot. Perhaps this isn’t factual, but the FBO personnel were adament about this. Hmmm. Also, apparently at some point they did try to do a go-around. The word there is that after some very hard ground contact, the plane bounced, went up, and went down nose first after that. Where the go-around attempt took place in all this I don’t know.

All said, I expect that the FAA report, when issued, will be sobering.

HEY DON

I THINK YOU ARE TOTALLY RIGHT IN THIS STATEMENT , I COMMENTED ON THIS ABOUT 3-4 WEEKS AGO AND A NUMBER OF READERS AND PAUL TRAINA ALSO THOUGHT I WAS DEFINETLY WRONG WHEN I SAID THAT A 110 HR PILOT IS NOT REALLY QUALIFIED TO BE IN THIS PLANE.

I FEL BAD FOR THE NEW BUYERS , I HOPE THEY ARE DOING OK, BUT I TOLD PAUL THAT IS JUST MY OPINION

REGARDS ERNIE

9

I have 150 hours in a Bellanca out of 260 hours total. If I had had proper training and been allowed to land the SR22 by myself this would not have happened. Also if the seat belts had held we wouldn’t have had any injuries!!!

10

The SR2X’s are not difficult planes to fly, but they are much higher performance per HP than their brand C and P counterparts. And as they say speed kills. I tend to agree that low time pilots will have their hands full transitioning not because they are hard to fly, but because the speed makes things happen 2X faster than the training fleet they are coming from, which requires judgement and experience to manage. Picking a good transition plane to build some time in would be highly recommended for a low time pilot just to be safe. I can personally recommend the Grumman line (Tiger or Cheetah) as they have the same gear/steering arrangement, a cleaner airframe than normal GA, higher overall as well as approach speeds and a very similair sight picture in the landing phase. Others in this forum (I believe Walt) have also noted the similarities with the Grummans.

Roger
N706CD

If this is true…sadly…no one with 200 hours and a student should be in a high performance plane like the SR22…if the insurance co’s DIDN’T write policies with 'inexperience ‘at any price’…these people wouldn’t be in the air with this type of plane PERIOD!

I also was there the week of June 11th and met Barbara and Joey Barquin. Joey told me that Barbara was the pilot with about 200 hours and he was the student. It is sobering to meet people and here of their accident, thankfully they are alright. Rick Kummerow

Today I took a trip to one of my frequent short cross-country spots - Springfield MO. I had actually tried to avoid going there, because of the accident, but it was the best weather direction today. Unexpedtedly, it had some areas of interesting information.

When I landed, the controller wanted to know lots of information about the plane, such as how much HP, does it have speed brakes, etc. I taxied by the plane that the SR22 hit. The damage was unbelieveable. The plane was about the size of a DC3, and the middle of it had a huge, gaping hole. I later found out that they had to use a jaws of life type of device to extricate the 22. Also, the 22 had to travel significant distance laterally to hit this plane, crossing over a grass area, a taxiway, more grass, and some ramp area.

At the FBO, they brought me pictures. Apparently as the 22 crossed the grass, it lost one of the main landing gears. The FBO personnel were amazed that anyone survived, and one person commented that if it were a metal plane, the people and the plane would be totally gone.

Here’s the part that I wasn’t aware of - the co-pilot (husband) is a CFI, and the pilot (wife) is a student pilot. Perhaps this isn’t factual, but the FBO personnel were adament about this. Hmmm. Also, apparently at some point they did try to do a go-around. The word there is that after some very hard ground contact, the plane bounced, went up, and went down nose first after that. Where the go-around attempt took place in all this I don’t know.

All said, I expect that the FAA report, when issued, will be sobering.

HEY DON

I THINK YOU ARE TOTALLY RIGHT IN THIS STATEMENT , I COMMENTED ON THIS ABOUT 3-4 WEEKS AGO AND A NUMBER OF READERS AND PAUL TRAINA ALSO THOUGHT I WAS DEFINETLY WRONG WHEN I SAID THAT A 110 HR PILOT IS NOT REALLY QUALIFIED TO BE IN THIS PLANE.

I FEL BAD FOR THE NEW BUYERS , I HOPE THEY ARE DOING OK, BUT I TOLD PAUL THAT IS JUST MY OPINION

REGARDS ERNIE

11

I have 150 hours in a Bellanca out of 260 hours total. If I had had proper training and been allowed to land the SR22 by myself this would not have happened. Also if the seat belts had held we wouldn’t have had any injuries!!!

Barbara

One of the main reasons for the Cirrus Owners

and Pilots Association will be safety and the
idea that one incident is too many. It would

appear from your post that there is more to this

incident than we have been told. Since the
organization is not in place yet to provide
you with the support you need/needed perhaps

you may wish to elaborate. This forum acts as our

communication vehicle until and if some better

way is devised.
It may be that you are restricted from telling

us the details because of governmental or

insurance issues. If that is the case I would

request that you sit down and write out what

occurred while it is fresh in your mind and file

it away until such time as you see fit to share

it with us all. Again, we are all thankful that
you seem to be OK and obviously full of energy.

12

So it was the instructor’s fault? So much for PIC accountability.

I have 150 hours in a Bellanca out of 260 hours total. If I had had proper training and been allowed to land the SR22 by myself this would not have happened. Also if the seat belts had held we wouldn’t have had any injuries!!!

13

So it was the instructor’s fault? So much for PIC accountability.

If I had had proper training and been allowed to land the SR22 by myself this would not have happened.
It’s actually quite an interesting conceptual point: whether, by definition, any technique-type accident (hard landing, forgetting to put down the gear, a stall-spin turn when going base-to-final, etc) is evidence of improper training and therefore of the instructor’s liability.
I can see the logical case that it is: If I had been properly trained, I would not have let the airspeed decay during the base-to-final turn. I did let the airspeed decay; therefore I was improperly trained.
I can also see any instructor anywhere refusing ever to sign off any student if this view prevailed.
I imply no judgment whatsoever about this Springfield case or responsibility in this instance. I know nothing about it and have no idea what its causes were. I’m just talking about the theoretical issue of where “blame” lies. jf

14

So it was the instructor’s fault? So much for PIC accountability.

If I had had proper training and been allowed to land the SR22 by myself this would not have happened.

It’s actually quite an interesting conceptual point: whether, by definition, any technique-type accident (hard landing, forgetting to put down the gear, a stall-spin turn when going base-to-final, etc) is evidence of improper training and therefore of the instructor’s liability.

I can see the logical case that it is: If I had been properly trained, I would not have let the airspeed decay during the base-to-final turn. I did let the airspeed decay; therefore I was improperly trained.

I can also see any instructor anywhere refusing ever to sign off any student if this view prevailed.

I imply no judgment whatsoever about this Springfield case or responsibility in this instance. I know nothing about it and have no idea what its causes were. I’m just talking about the theoretical issue of where “blame” lies. jf

Jim, I think the question isn’t about blame, its about responsibility. Giving her (assuming its not an imposter)every benefit of the doubt that she had bad instruction (certainly inconsistent with my experience; also begs the question whether instructor’s other students had problems) if she didn’t feel properly trained she shouldn’t have left Duluth. I can’t imagaine that if she said “I have not been properly trained, and have not had the opportunity to land the plane myself” that the Cirrus people would have supported her flying unprepared. Even if they told her, “sorry, no more training” she could have refused to fly the trip. All of us (myself definately included) have the potential of being in this person’s very unfortunate situation. At the same time, blatently blaming someone else for flying with improper training is pretty questionable, pretty small, and terribly unfair to the instructor, in my opinion.

15

Andy, I understand and actually agree. I was just trying to see where the view that a pilot’s operational problems are the instructor’s responsibility would lead.

And I do think it’s actually an interesting question. We all can recognize the extreme cases. If an instructor let a student solo after one more-or-less competent landing in dual instruction, we’d feel the instructor was “responsible” if the student got into trouble on the solo. On the other hand, if an experienced pilot went below minimums on an instrument approach, it would be a real stretch to hold his CFII responsible for not having “properly” taught him, years earlier, never to do such a thing. The question is where the line comes between those cases. Instructors obviously have some quasi-parental, quasi-fiduciary responsibility to their students. But at a certain point the pilot’s autonomy, judgment, and free will have to take over.

Again, I offer no opinion about the side of the line on which this case falls. I am saying that the line-drawing is complicated and interesting.

Jim, I think the question isn’t about blame, its about responsibility. Giving her (assuming its not an imposter)every benefit of the doubt that she had bad instruction (certainly inconsistent with my experience; also begs the question whether instructor’s other students had problems) if she didn’t feel properly trained she shouldn’t have left Duluth. I can’t imagaine that if she said “I have not been properly trained, and have not had the opportunity to land the plane myself” that the Cirrus people would have supported her flying unprepared. Even if they told her, “sorry, no more training” she could have refused to fly the trip. All of us (myself definately included) have the potential of being in this person’s very unfortunate situation. At the same time, blatently blaming someone else for flying with improper training is pretty questionable, pretty small, and terribly unfair to the instructor, in my opinion.

16

And I do think it’s actually an interesting question. We all can recognize the extreme cases. If an instructor let a student solo after one more-or-less competent landing in dual instruction, we’d feel the instructor was “responsible” if the student got into trouble on the solo.

Interesting – I was just having this discussion with the A&P at the local Cirrus service center last week – a student pilot, on her first solo, apparently landed a 152 on the nosewheel, went off the runway, and the plane flipped over. (Thankfully she wasn’t injured!)

Steve