Operating Costs

Yep, file has to be .jpg to work.

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Yep, file has to be .jpg to work.


Warren,
I think “gifs” work as well.

Yep. [:)]

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Here is what I know about ice. Do not get anywhere NEAR icing in a Cirrus, unless you have multiple outs. An out DOES NOT include TKS or the parachute. Also have multiple outs when flying anywhere near thunderstorms or passengers who just ate a bunch of chili.


Your statement above aren’t just an approach to ice. Your comments are a “life” philosophy and apply to many things.
I live in a world of “forms”. People come to me, and I help them think through a problem so as to find a viable and complete solution. Others go to Office Depot and by a form . . . any form.
For example, I often see Office Depot real estate contracts.
Many deals are completed using such contracts. The problem is that, at least in Florida, those contracts are uninforceable. Well why do you have a contact? Answer: because if you need to enforce it, you can . . . right? Well how much money did you save by purchasing an uninforcable contract at Office Depot.
My point is that there are no REAL shortcuts to research, understanding, and thinking through a problem. Folks that are looking for short quick answers, may get short quick answers but without an understanding of how the answer came about, extrapolation is difficult, and solutions are often impossible.
I failed algerbra 3 times in High School. I was pretty smart. I just figured it out in my head, not writing down the process. Teachers kept saying, no way. We want to see you work through the process. I now understand that with math, problem solving, and airplane information, there are no shortcuts to doing your research and homework.
Quick answers without complete understanding of the solution are invitations to disaster.
There is no way around doing your homework. I wish I understood that when I was younger. Some understand that instinctively, some just want others to answer their questions. The latter approach can be fatal to a pilot.

Dinjer,

This email is not to comment on the content of your reply, but on the eloquence with which you have expressed your thoughts.

I note that this was your first post - I look forward to many more.

  • Mike.

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The man is being prudent in asking what to expect, not to go around in repetitive unhelpful circles.
“It all depends” is not a useful answer.


The man is being lazy. The issue has been discussed, ad nauseum" amoung highly experienced owners on the Members Forum. The only answer is “it all depends”. No other answer would be correct.

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… hopefully without people biting his head off for asking relevant questions.


You are right. I was a bit abrasive. I apologized to him privately. BTW, he joined the forum and has likely found his answer through detailed review of thousands of posts . . . a prudent thing to do before making a major investment.

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How much do you think a used a Rolls Royce car is?


It all depends. Again, this is the only answer, but more importantly, the original question was not "how much does it cost to buy, but rather, “how much does it cost to operate”. I stand my ground. “It all depends”

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“If you have to ask…?”, nonsense, …look at EBAY motors, many are for sale for around $30k (Surprised?


Again, your EBAY site is a “for sale” site, but in not responsive to the question asked which was, "how much, does it cost to operate.

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As far as a Cirrus is concerned, the cost after acquisition is about $300 per hour, soup to nuts, give or take, depending on age of airplane, how often you fly etc.


That sure sounds like, “it all depends” to my ear.

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Now this is a useful response to his question.


How self indulgent! Thank you for pointing out that my style was wrong and yours was the correct approach.

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I gave it without badgering the guy to join COPA, which he should join only because he wants to, not because we will not be useful to him unless he does.


“The guy” joined. “The guy” has found the information he sought in order to make a well thought out decision prior to purchasing a half a million dollar aircraft.

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It is his $50, he is asking a question at a free public forum. Let us encourage these people, not show off our superior knowledge that may only be revealed for $50.


I agree. Let’s encourage people. However, if you invest in a stock, and you are not a highly sophisticated investor, the digested research is not free, nor is it readily available on free sites…

Being a member of COPA is so much more than an information site to answer a specific question.

It’s hard to say how much research one does to determine purchase value and operating costs, but review of the free side of COPA or any other forum, rarely does it.

BTW, many many owners would disagree with your statement of $300 operating costs.

All that being said, thanks for the debate.

This thread has gone all over the place, and so now i’m going to try to bring it back to the question of operating costs. The figures in this thread range from $168 to $300 per flying hour. Many assumptions have to be made to calculate airplane costs. I can only speak from my personal experience about costs which are a new plan, medium time IFR rated pilot, rural hangar. Of course, the costs depend to a great degree on how much you fly. If you fly 1 hour, your costs will be about $8,000 for insurance, about $3000 for a hangar, estimated $10,000 loss in airplane value for a year-older plane, $2000 for an annual, and either interest cost or loss of income on $300,000 investment which would be $18,000, if at 6%, plus the subscriptions for Cmax, Avidyne, and the Garmins which (i forget the actual price)may be $1,000, for a total of $42,000 per hour. The costs will be higher if you fly more, but it will bring down your per hour cost. The cost of avgas is let’s say $4.00 per gallon, and the sr 22 likes to burn 18 gal per hour so that’s $72 per hour plus a quart of oil every 10 hours or so. If you fly a little, like 100 hours per year, that would be $42,000 plus $7,500 for a total of $49,500 or $495 per hour. If you fly the ‘normal’ 200 hours a year, you would have spent, in my calculations, $42,000 plus $15,000 on gas and oil for a total of $57,000 or $285 per hour. If you really fly a lot, 300 hour, you will spend $42,000 plus $22,500 or $64,500 which works out to $222 per hour. To get down to the previously mentioned price of $168 per hour you would have to fly over 400 hours per year, using my assumptions.

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I think a lot of potential COPA members may not join…


So, don’t join then.

A valuable “wheat from chaff” process. What’s left is a close knit group who can dish it out as well as take it.

Probably not for you.

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For a bunch of guys and gals that own “half a million dollar” airplanes…


Nothing to do with anything. I’ve seen the same dynamic on site devoted to $10k motorcycles.

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Dennis,
I think a lot of potential COPA members may not join after reading many of the sarcastic, idiotic, childish, condescending and patronizing responses that i have read after being a member for just a few days now. For a bunch of guys and gals that own “half a million dollar” airplanes, many of you seem to have forgotten where you came from. I think there are many members that disgrace what COPA represents and belittle those that just want answers to legitimate questions.


Mark; Since you directed the statement to me, I will respond. You have chosen several very aggressive words suggesting that I or we are esentially not willing to spoon feed information about such complex questions as operating costs to those that I/we believe have “chosen” to take the “easy way” of problem solving. Mommy bring me, take me, buy me, tell me the answer. My mom and dad would respond, “go look it up.” That is my world.
I live in an industry of similar clients who find themselves in trouble for the very same reason. They failed to think through the question, seeking only a quick answer. They choose to not “figure out” productive solution or affiliate with those who can help; they fail to investigate and search and accept that solution can not come from quick answers.
“They didn’t pay their bill” they would say. “Did you check out the people before you extended them credit,” I would say. Or, “The seller of the house I am buying, didn’t show up at closing. Why did that happen.” Did you have an attorney to help you with your contract." “NO, I bought it at Office Depot” they will say.
Most people look for quick cheap solutions to complex problems, not willing to put in the time and effort to prevent a problem before it happens rather than solving the problem after it happens.
Well, in aviation, we often don’t have the privilage of “solving the problem, after it happens;” surprise, you’re dead"
So, I am not real sorry. No one can give a quick answer to such things as “operating costs” without that answer being overly simplistic. The answer can be nothing but “it all depends.”
So, I do not feel regret for telling people, "please don’t expect, short quick answers to complex questions. Please, don’t be on the outside when the answer to your questions have allready be asked and answered on the inside, “but for” your lack of desire to search for the answer.

Every COPA member will go to the wall to help those who help themselves. Take a look at TAN, and you will see just how many members are willing to help other membes of this organization. Oh, you don’t know what TAN is.
Someone tell him. I’m finished.

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Dennis,
I think a lot of potential COPA members may not join after reading many of the sarcastic, idiotic, childish, condescending and patronizing responses that i have read after being a member for just a few days now. For a bunch of guys and gals that own “half a million dollar” airplanes, many of you seem to have forgotten where you came from. I think there are many members that disgrace what COPA represents and belittle those that just want answers to legitimate questions.


I agree with poster air23mf.

I don’t own a Cirrus, but would give my left one, for one. I absolutely LUST for a SR22. I have been a private pilot since 1989.

What is the matter with you people?

I absolutely agree that there are many sarcastic, idiotic, childish, condescending and patronizing responses in this forum.

You people own 1/2 million dollar airplanes and you post cartoonish icons of a cartoon character flipping the bird???

Are there any Cirrus forums where the members don’t talk stupid and represent themselves as idiots???

I think that lawyer should be nominated President of the More-Money-Than-Brains Club and go on a DEER hunting trip with Dick Cheney.

Just thought you should know.

I agree with telling people to do research rather than being spoon fed answers. However, I am continuously frustrated in using the search function to find threads that I know exist but can never find.
Fortunately for me, there are several people who have always been kind enough to provide the link necessary to find the answers. A newcomer would have even less clues on how to search without skimming thousands of posts to find the proper search phrase or keyword

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I agree with telling people to do research rather than being spoon fed answers. However, I am continuously frustrated in using the search function to find threads that I know exist but can never find.
Fortunately for me, there are several people who have always been kind enough to provide the link necessary to find the answers. A newcomer would have even less clues on how to search without skimming thousands of posts to find the proper search phrase or keyword


John:
I agree with you completely. Even when the “search” function doesn’t always provide positive results, often people who started or were involved in a particular thread can help.
Any newcomer should start by looking through the “FAQ” section which provides the answers to many questions. I guess that starting with the FAQ section is like asking someone to read the POH before jumping into the plane. It sure makes it easier to help them when they have done their homework “before” they ask the question.
BTW, I have found some “pearls of wisdom” that I accidentely stumbled upon while doing a search and skimming through those thousands of posts to which you refer.

Good morning, guys.
If you look back at the first page of posts to this thread, several members, including Dennis and myself, immediately chimed in with answers to the question.
If, later on, someone felt they don’t like the tone of the responses or suggestions (including the valuable suggestion that to join COPA) then boo-hoo.
It often comes across that if we don’t handle newbies with kid gloves, we’ll somehow be diminished if they don’t join - I just don’t see it that way.
Fabrizio, the original poster, was not put off and joined (welcome Fabrizio!) - his gain (and ours) and the key to a treasure trove of good info, some of which may save his life but will certainly save him money in the long run.

The Mark F. appears out of nowhere and doesn’t like our “sarcastic, idiotic, childish, condescending and patronizing responses”.

Well, you get what you pay for.

Seriously, if Mark can’t handle occasionally “sarcastic, idiotic, childish, condescending and patronizing responses” this is NOT the place for him.

Dennis

I agree, there are many “pearls of wisdom” in these posts. My problem is that if I don’t copy them to a separate folder within a reasonable amount of time, I have difficulty in locating them later when a problem occurs & I would want that info

John:

I love the PM (Private Message) part of COPA. If I get close to an answer with search but need more info…I PM the most knowledgeable people in that particular thread. They usually link me to another great post or give me answers right on the spot.

Oh, BTW this is why Rich K. said COPA is worth $50,000 in his opinion. The PM capability on the member side lets us all get to know each other much better…and furthers the point that COPA IS NOT A BLOG.

If you get lost in search, I suggest sending a PM to a member that may seem to be knowledgeable.

Fly Safe!

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. . .if Mark can’t handle occasionally “sarcastic, idiotic, childish, condescending and patronizing responses” this is NOT the place for him.


You tell’m Eddie.

Dennis,

Help me out here…

…is that supposed to be me, or a hippo with shamrock antlers?

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Dennis
I agree, there are many “pearls of wisdom” in these posts. My problem is that if I don’t copy them to a separate folder within a reasonable amount of time, I have difficulty in locating them later when a problem occurs & I would want that info


This is just my technique, but . . .
In my busineess tons of new legal opinions are issued every day. I merely “scan” them. I gave up cataloguing a long time ago. By scanning, I derive what I call, memory joggers. That way, I may not remember the details, but I know that the answer to my question is there somewhere.
Later, a “key word” search will usually find it. If not, I ask my fellow COPA members to help; they always do once I have put in the initial effort to try first.

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…and the sr 22 likes to burn 18 gal per hour…


As a data point, mine likes to burn closer to 13 gph.

That’s about $20/hr less @ $4/gal, though a typical trip may take a few extra minutes.

Bob, good analysis. Two points. LOP fuel burn averages more like 13 GPH. Since I was the guy that posted the $168 per hour, that is what Advocate Consulting uses for tax purposes tot he IRS. I believe they get their numbers based upon average national rental rates, and I also beleive it is “dry”. So $13 per hour at $4.00 per hour for fuel would be $52 gal per hour on top of $168 would be $220. I like that figure for tax purposes, but i think you analysis is more accurate. In addition, I flew mine 350 hours last year, and while warranttee covered a ton of stuff, and my annual was in the neighborhood of the $2,000 you mentioned, other maintenance costs were substantially higher (my guess is in the neighborhood of $10,000 - although I am a nut about keeping it maintained). However, I think that the more hours your fly, the higher your maintenance costs and that probably offsets the reduction in fixed costs divided by hours flown. $400 per hour without regard to miles flown may be more realistic - all considered. (Of course that is not what we want for the tax guys, and certainly not a figure the marketing guys are going to like either).