I recently took a demo flight in both the 20 and 22 and I was absolutely blown away. I gotta have one!
There are really only 2 and maybe soon 3 ways to make aircraft ownership affordable. Partnership, lease-back and now fractional ownership may be catching on. Although the 22 is a real slippery race horse with advanced avionics and a slightly unconventional landing attitude, I wondered if an SR22 on lease-back would work.
Certainly there would be plenty of interest. But how high would the pilot minimums need to be to prevent an accident, poor care of the aircraft and yet rent enough to cover it’s expenses?
Some have said 300 hrs total time, 100 hrs. high performance and an IFR ticket. This seems rather high, as even I wouldn’t qualify (assuming no owner benefits were established) but maybe not?
In Seattle, San Diego, San Jose and Atlanta at some of the better known fractional companies, pilot minimums have been set from 150 TT to 300 TT but rarely a high performance prerequisite and other than in San Jose - no IFR required.
The one thing that everyone agrees upon is 10 hrs. make and model which amounts to the satisfactory accomplishment of the Cirrus check out safety course.
I put the question out there to the other Cirrus lovers… Would an SR22 rent at KSMO or KVNY? and if so where would you set pilot minimums? and while we’re at it…how much?
There was an SR20 for rent in Ft Myers Fl, Page Field - SafeFlight International. I flew it a few times and so did several other COPA members. I spoke to someone at SafeFlight several months ago. They sold the plane. One comment the person made was that they were not making money on the rental. The insurance was killing them - it was $20000 a year. The plane rented for $139/hr wet.
Josh,
Frankly, I do not think that 10 hours is nearly enough time in make and model for a low time pilot in an SR22 especially if total high performance time is less than 25 hours. Some insurance companies require 25 hours make and model. The SR22 is a great flying machine with many advanced and highly integrated features. However, ultimately, all of its features are integrated by the PIC. Things happen very fast in any HP airplane and because of the 22’s seemingly docile first impression, any pilot, experienced or inexperienced, can be lulled into complacency. It’s like having a full grown tiger for a pet. Every now and then the beast can, and will, show its fangs. Obviously, a seasoned tiger handler with ‘the reflex of experience’ has a much better chance of maintaining control. In my opinion and experience (just under 250 hours in the SR22), 10 hours simply isn’t enough time to have trained through or experienced enough ‘events’ to safely handle problems if and when they arise in the SR22 (or any high performance airplane). As you know, minor unexpected events when reacted to improperly can result in BIG problems. This is particularly true in a high performance airplane with an inexperienced handler. Slick looking airplanes with great panels can be a real distraction to the fact that the stakes are very high in this flying game. Occasionally, (and as review of NTSB reports reveal, all too frequently) things can and do go very wrong with the slightest lapse of attention and experience. My two cents (four cents at this point ): Get as much high performance experience as you can with a CFII before rushing into PIC in an SR22. I think that review of many of the accidents/incidents with the SR22 and other high performance airplanes clearly supports this position.
I’ve been flying an SR20 for about 2 years now in a group ownership arrangement - 5 of us. It has worked out well, in my view. The utilisation has been good (800 hours in 2 years) and the fixed costs are split 5 ways. I’ve usually been able to get the plane when I want it, with a couple of exceptions. But I fly for pleasure, not business. We put a fair bit of effort into a shareholders agreement (the plane is owned by a company of which we are equal shareholders) that offers protection for our investment.
Hmmm…understood, but I would suggest that the LA market might be more successful, particularely with a 22. My rate on insurance is $12,880.00 for rental.
Mid Island Air at Islip-MacArthur (KISP) in NY recently took delivery of a Lancair 300 which they are renting to a preapproved syndicate of pilots in a kind of hybrid rental/time share arrangement. You might contact Andrew Berk at (631) 588-5400 to see what their experience has been like.
Wow, $139 wet to rent a fabulous $235,000 plane! I think that’s unrealistically low. Just the cost of the money would be about 20k/year. I would be surprised if a rental SR20 was considered profitable at such a low rate.Clark Jernigan
FWIW I would think long and hard about putting one’s personal airplane on a rental line, unless one can essentially view it in a detached way as a piece of rental equipment. I assure you that’s how the renters will view (and treat) it.
My own experience as a flying club member is what pushed me into sole aircraft ownership. I saw too much “renter abuse” and its consequences, especially for new or nearly-new aircraft. Pigs would fly before I put my own plane on a rental line.
A decent compromise may be one of the new “fractional ownership” arrangements. There the pilot pool is more limited, likely better qualified, and has at least some “ownership” interest in the plane. In addition the initial capital investment will be lower, although the per-flight-hour cost will be similar to owning your own unless you only fly ~100 hr/year or less.
Kevin, I agree with you. The one real reason to not go lease-back is how YOUR aircraft will be treated. I can’t say I’m not guilty of a few poor landings and messing up avionics settings my self. However, that would be the cost for having limited expenses and a very distant management role. I figure with high pilot minimums, maybe IFR, a Cirrus check out and a complete check ride, the list of renters may be kept small and sofisticated. I’d idealy love to own my own bird but at over 4k per month all in (including recapture), that’s a little tough!
Sounds like great advice. But I still maintain that a 300 hr, 100 high performance and a significant checkout on the 22, maybe an IFR ticket would put a number of very qualified pilots in the seat. Or is it the make and model time that you think is the problem? Certianly there are many other HP planes that rent very well to high time pilots…
What is your flying profile? Hours per year, lots of medium/hard IFR or mostly VFR/light IFR? Mostly weekend or mostly during the week? Mostly half- or one-day trips or a significant amount of multi-day, long x-country flying? For those longer trips, are your schedules flexible or is it, “if I can’t leave today, I’ll have to cancel the trip?”
If you fly less than 100 hr per year, sole ownership borders on the financially ludicrous and it’s bad for the engine too. If you fly 150-200 hr per year, sole ownership begins to look attractive, and anything over 250 hr per year it likely makes financial sense compared to other options.
Are you viewing leaseback as a chance to make $$ on the plane? You won’t, unless it’s a trainer that flies every day (not the '22). At best it will reduce your costs, not cover them.
But I still maintain that a 300 hr, 100 high performance and a significant checkout on the 22, maybe an IFR ticket would put a number of very qualified pilots in the seat. Or is it the make and model time that you think is the problem? Certianly there are many other HP planes that rent very well to high time pilots…
My only question is whether 300 hours total time is “high time”. Everything is relative, but it doesn’t seem like a lot of experience to me. It’s certainly a respectable amount of time, but will insurance companies see it that way? Don’t know, just wondering…
Good question…Insurance companies aren’t too concerned because the airplane is insured for a healthy figure, but under a far larger policy for an entire FBO or flight school. The school is free to set the minimums where they like.
Time-in-Type, Total Time, Time in last 12 months and Time in last 90 days are all proxies for the real questions:
How current is the pilot?
What are the pilot’s skills?
Can the pilot handle this airplane?
and the big question:
What is the risk of this pilot flying this airplane?
While there are no absolutes, these times are thought to be the best, most easily measurable and consistent way to answer those questions. However, those times aren’t perfect indicators of a pilot’s proficiency, they are just thought to be the best.
I would argue that if you take two pilots with similarly good attitudes, and one has 10,000 hours, but almost all in heavy iron and the other has 400 hours in the last two years, all in the same type. I would trust the latter in that airplane.
My personal plane?? I would not let anyone fly it that I haven’t flown with first and found and found to be skilled, having a very good attitude and concientious.
): Get as much high performance experience as you can with a CFII before rushing into PIC in an SR22. I think that review of many of the accidents/incidents with the SR22 and other high performance airplanes clearly supports this position.