There is been discussion on the next generation being a retractable with a diesel power. I believe there would be a tremendous market for the next generation in engines in the form of the williams jet. It produces almost a 10:1 weight to thrust ratio, and is about the same cost of the current Continental 550. A 4/6 place single engine retractable turbine, could wow the general aviation industry. Any thougts or feedback for the Cirrus people that monitor this forum? Larry
Let’s call it ST 30 and put the price to 300K$.
There is been discussion on the next generation being a retractable with a diesel power. I believe there would be a tremendous market for the next generation in engines in the form of the williams jet. It produces almost a 10:1 weight to thrust ratio, and is about the same cost of the current Continental 550. A 4/6 place single engine retractable turbine, could wow the general aviation industry. Any thougts or feedback for the Cirrus people that monitor this forum? Larry
I think it is safe to say that Cirrus is well aware of the Williams engine, the Eclipse (and other similar projects), and the potential in this area. Put it this way–if you were an aeronautical engineer, what would you like to work on next?
Of course, certifying such an aircraft would make the SR20 certification effort seem like a walk in the park. Now you’re talking about pressurization, known icing, and all the rest. Cirrus has been through the mill with the FAA already, so they have a bit of a leg up there. However, Cirrus would have to raise serious money in order to pull this off without bankrupting the company in the process.
The capital markets are dry as a convent. End of story for now.
When they open up, Cirrus should be ready with a plan to fill the gap that will soon lie between its SR24 (its 300hp retractable) and the Eclipse jet. The gap I’m talking about is the single turboprop 6-placer. Williams is the answer. I reckon Cirrus could sell such a plane (ST50?) for $700K and clean up. Goodbye Baron. So long Malibu and Meridian. See ya later, all you tarted-up Jimmy Carter-era Conquests.
Yes, such an undertaking would cost hundreds of millions and represent yet another bet-the-company deal for the Klapmeiers.
On the other hand, what choice does Cirrus have? There seem to be only two kinds of GA manufacturers: turbine sellers and the terminally broke.
Name a piston-only aircraft manufacturer that doesn’t live hand-to-mouth. There is no such beast.
If Cirrus stays in pistons only, its prices will have to go up 20-percent or Cirrus will never make much of a profit. Of course, if its prices rise, then its volume might fall, and pretty soon our favorite Duluthers could be spiraling toward Mooney-ville.
The turbine market is plainly less price sensitive than the piston market. The capital markets like it much better . . . witness the ease with which Vern Raburn raised $150 million for Eclipse . . . witness the venture-backed takeover of Pilatus, with hopes for an IPO in two years . . . versus the struggle of Alan and Dale to keep things going.
Cirrus has to go upmarket. The sooner the better.
There is been discussion on the next generation being a retractable with a diesel power. I believe there would be a tremendous market for the next generation in engines in the form of the williams jet. It produces almost a 10:1 weight to thrust ratio, and is about the same cost of the current Continental 550. A 4/6 place single engine retractable turbine, could wow the general aviation industry. Any thougts or feedback for the Cirrus people that monitor this forum? Larry
This is a good one.Lets let them make the deliveries for now.The feds should actually take a trip and audit these guys for one thing on production.I as, an insider don’t see this company being around for long as “CIRRUS”.Just wont happen.Somebody will buy if klapss will alow which would be a good thing for the company.You customers have no idea what kind of money trouble they are in.It’s bad.The klaps have spent some time with cessna on the business production looking at things as they think they can make money on a business jet kind thing like they did with the -22.They get a little ahead of themselves.By the way. They have cut all pay raises and incentive kinda things for the employees lately.Besides they lay-offs.avg. pay 9 bux an hour.jeff
A turboprop version of the same engine must be in the works.
There is been discussion on the next generation being a retractable with a diesel power. I believe there would be a tremendous market for the next generation in engines in the form of the williams jet. It produces almost a 10:1 weight to thrust ratio, and is about the same cost of the current Continental 550. A 4/6 place single engine retractable turbine, could wow the general aviation industry. Any thougts or feedback for the Cirrus people that monitor this forum? Larry
There is been discussion on the next generation being a retractable with a diesel power. I believe there would be a tremendous market for the next generation in engines in the form of the williams jet. It produces almost a 10:1 weight to thrust ratio, and is about the same cost of the current Continental 550. A 4/6 place single engine retractable turbine, could wow the general aviation industry. Any thougts or feedback for the Cirrus people that monitor this forum? Larry
Maybe the Klap’s can first raise more money by being the first to deliver a certified Diesel. (SR22D) and make a big hit in Europe. No big alterations to the airframe, just another powerplant. And maybe a VFR only version for flightschools after that (without parachute for insurance reasons ?!, just basic 250XL GPS, no autopilot). The volume could keep them in bussiness before dissapearing to Mooneyland while playing Newpiper and Cessna out of the piston market.
Jaap
Of course, certifying such an aircraft would make the SR20 certification effort seem like a walk in the park. Now you’re talking about pressurization, known icing, and all the rest. Cirrus has been through the mill with the FAA already, so they have a bit of a leg up there. However, Cirrus would have to raise serious money in order to pull this off without bankrupting the company in the process.
I agree with Dave. The last thing Cirrus needs to do right now is stretch their resources to yet another project, especially a project including new technologies. If you think about it, except for their use of composites, there really isn’t a whole lot of really new technology in the SR2X. And even the composite airframe isn’t necessarily new (except for the production processes they still need to perfect). The use of composites is well proven in the military, Civilian jet, and homebuilt markets.
This is a good thing. When starting a new company, the last thing you want to do is something that hasn’t been done before. It is better to take existing technologies, and combine them in new ways. Then, the only thing you have to worry about is developing a market for your product, as opposed to also having to figure out how to make your product at the same time (and usually, in the end, being unable to deliver the product in time).
In some ways, even the SR22 is a bit of a stretch. It would be better that they finish the SR20 first. But I think releasing it was the best thing they could have done, as it is really just a simple extension of their existing product. It adds some much needed marketing flash, opens them up to new markets, and I think it was launched at just about the perfect time for them in many ways as it has kept them in the public eye, just when many people may have been slowly forgetting about them as their newness subsided.
The most important thing they need to do right now is to learn how to deliver product as fast as they can (without impacting quality in any way). I spoke to a couple sales people at Cirrus last year when I was at Sun-n-Fun, and they were, well, you could say, upset. They felt that they were reaching perhaps 20% to 30% of the potential market because of the long lead times on delivery. Many people just aren’t willing to wait so long once they get the idea to make such a purchase into their heads. Until that lead time is reduced to a reasonable level (12-20 weeks), IOW, until they get their production processes working as they would like them to, Cirrus Design will have to live with just barely getting by businesswise. We are a world of short memories, and even shorter patience.
But then again, it’s always nice to dream 
In the meantime, keep plugging CD, we know you can do it. You really do have a great product, and have positioned it as accurately as you could
If Cirrus stays in pistons only, its prices will have to go up 20-percent or Cirrus will never make much of a profit. Of course, if its prices rise, then its volume might fall, and pretty soon our favorite Duluthers could be spiraling toward Mooney-ville.
The turbine market is plainly less price sensitive than the piston market. The capital markets like it much better . . . witness the ease with which Vern Raburn raised $150 million for Eclipse . . . witness the venture-backed takeover of Pilatus, with hopes for an IPO in two years . . . versus the struggle of Alan and Dale to keep things going.
Cirrus has to go upmarket. The sooner the better.
Rich,
I agree with your observations, but don’t forget that the Klapmeiers have said that they want to change the current model. My interpretation is that they want to become the Henry Ford of general aviation.
Of course, this is a chicken or the egg problem. There can be no mass market GA aircraft until there is sufficient demand. There won’t be sufficient demand until it becomes easier and cheaper to fly in your own airplane.
Technology (and its implementation in a massive infrastructure) could break this cycle, and make GA available to Everyman.
I’m guessing that Cirrus is betting this can happen, wants to help it along, and be in a good position when it happens.
If it does happen, the SR20 and SR22 will look like Piper Cubs compared to the next generation. And, while it’s fun to speculate about engine technologies, they are just means to an end and otherwise insignificant in this light.
Whether that all comes to pass or not, Cirrus is still making the best airplanes in their class right now.
-Mike
P.S. If everyone could fly, it wouldn’t be nearly as much fun for the current crop of pilots!
I as, an insider don’t see this company being around for long as “CIRRUS”.Just wont happen.Somebody will buy if klapss will alow which would be a good thing for the company.You customers have no idea what kind of money trouble they are in…avg. pay 9 bux an hour.jeff<
Again, this is specific and very interesting information for those of us in the “you customers” category. You say here that you are speaking “as an insider.” Are you an insider with Cirrus? That would obviously give these words great authority. (And it would be fun to see how the company dealt with an insider who posts this information publically under a name.)
So are you a Cirrus insider? Insider elsewhere in the industry? Financier? Rival company? Since these points you’re making are so powerful and so specific, it would be a great service to the rest of us to understand what they are based on. Thank you, Jim Fallows
Hallo Jaap,
My information is, that the diesel project was looked into (the SMA Diesel from France), but abandonded because of high capital outlay up front (certification)and higher than expected operational costs due to some maintenance issues, which would make the proposition less attractive.
In any case, Cirrus should be focusing on getting the production SR2X out the door, as that’s what’s generating the cash to buy parts for building the next revenue unit…
Cheers
HK (N144CD on EHLE)
There is been discussion on the next generation being a retractable with a diesel power. I believe there would be a tremendous market for the next generation in engines in the form of the williams jet. It produces almost a 10:1 weight to thrust ratio, and is about the same cost of the current Continental 550. A 4/6 place single engine retractable turbine, could wow the general aviation industry. Any thougts or feedback for the Cirrus people that monitor this forum? Larry
Maybe the Klap’s can first raise more money by being the first to deliver a certified Diesel. (SR22D) and make a big hit in Europe. No big alterations to the airframe, just another powerplant. And maybe a VFR only version for flightschools after that (without parachute for insurance reasons ?!, just basic 250XL GPS, no autopilot). The volume could keep them in bussiness before dissapearing to Mooneyland while playing Newpiper and Cessna out of the piston market.
Jaap