Latest ferry drama - engine problems

Guest Discussion
1

Things have not gone smoothly with the ferry situation. N142CD is still in Hayward, awaiting FAA paperwork, but another problem has arisen. Apparently an SR20 in Europe had an engine problem, I don’t have any details but it involved low cylinder compression. This information was passed to Rob Leach, and he has had a compression test done on N142CD’s engine - the results were not good. Two cylinders have unacceptable compression - and this is a brand new engine.

We’re currently waiting to hear from Continental as to what they are going to do about it. Rob’s preference, not surprisingly, is to have a new engine fitted.

This is now the third engine problem on an SR20, and TCM’s other engines have also been affected by the two previous (crankshaft SB/ADB, magneto problem recently). It doesn’t inspire confidence.

2

Clyde —

I keep my A36 in Hayward . . . and am flying it this morning. I’ll keep my eyes open for 42CD.

One of the things I like about the SR22, at least in its concept, is the TCM IO/550, which the A36 crowd has worked over pretty hard for 16 years and for which a robust aftermarket of mods now exists. It’s a thoroughly vetted engine.

One wishes TCM would do this itself. The two big US engine mfrs. seem paralyzed to improve their own products . . . it’s always the vendor or aftermarket mod suppliers like GAMI that lead the way. Maybe the engine mfrs, with deeper pockets, fret that trial lawyers will interpret any improvement as an admission that previous engines had flaws. It’s a rotten situation for all.

The Klapmeiers should get all over TCM!

RK

Things have not gone smoothly with the ferry situation. N142CD is still in Hayward, awaiting FAA paperwork, but another problem has arisen. Apparently an SR20 in Europe had an engine problem, I don’t have any details but it involved low cylinder compression. This information was passed to Rob Leach, and he has had a compression test done on N142CD’s engine - the results were not good. Two cylinders have unacceptable compression - and this is a brand new engine.

We’re currently waiting to hear from Continental as to what they are going to do about it. Rob’s preference, not surprisingly, is to have a new engine fitted.

This is now the third engine problem on an SR20, and TCM’s other engines have also been affected by the two previous (crankshaft SB/ADB, magneto problem recently). It doesn’t inspire confidence.

3

I’ve been lurking and dreaming here for a while and wanted to pass along this tidbit. I was in Chicago yesterday for the day and got done with my work sooner then I thought. I drove over to Pal-Waukee airport to look up Windy City Flyers to see if I could get a hour of dual in thier SR20. I went in and found that their plane had just been included in the lastest expansion of the crank problems and they had grounded the plane as soon as it got back from it’s current flight. Missed by that much!

John

Things have not gone smoothly with the ferry situation. N142CD is still in Hayward, awaiting FAA paperwork, but another problem has arisen. Apparently an SR20 in Europe had an engine problem, I don’t have any details but it involved low cylinder compression. This information was passed to Rob Leach, and he has had a compression test done on N142CD’s engine - the results were not good. Two cylinders have unacceptable compression - and this is a brand new engine.

We’re currently waiting to hear from Continental as to what they are going to do about it. Rob’s preference, not surprisingly, is to have a new engine fitted.

This is now the third engine problem on an SR20, and TCM’s other engines have also been affected by the two previous (crankshaft SB/ADB, magneto problem recently). It doesn’t inspire confidence.

4

Things have not gone smoothly with the ferry situation. N142CD is still in Hayward, awaiting FAA paperwork, but another problem has arisen. Apparently an SR20 in Europe had an engine problem, I don’t have any details but it involved low cylinder compression. This information was passed to Rob Leach, and he has had a compression test done on N142CD’s engine - the results were not good. Two cylinders have unacceptable compression - and this is a brand new engine.

We’re currently waiting to hear from Continental as to what they are going to do about it. Rob’s preference, not surprisingly, is to have a new
engine fitted.

The european aircraft in is in the uk with a melted piston crown no 1 cyl poss caused by detination>, the engine is full of piston

This is now the third engine problem on an SR20, and TCM’s other engines have also been affected by the two previous (crankshaft SB/ADB, magneto problem recently). It doesn’t inspire confidence.

5

I’m certainly happy to have discovered this site. Seems more info flows here than anyplace else.

With the TCM problems arising AND their responses I’m having reservations about my choice of aircraft. I will be selling a perfectly flyable bird and hoped to be moving into a relatively trouble free one. If TCM/CD can’t get their act together then some of you will be moving up a slot. Don’t want to be that way but I rely on my plane too much for it to be grounded while someone takes their sweet time to get off their butts to perform the job they are paid quite handsomely(I’m sure)for. Issue correction response in a timely manner is one of the major factors in a successful company.

6

The -ES model of the Continental IO-360 engine and the similarly configured model of the IO-550 (-N?) used on the Cirrus aircraft have crossflow heads with tuned intake and exhaust.

Crossflow heads have the intake in the top of the cylinder head and the exhaust out the bottom of the cylinder head.

Tuning refers to equal length intake runners and exhaust pipes.

The GAMI injectors are not made for these engine moels.

The GAMI injectors compensate somewhat for the unequal intake runner lengths used on the other engine models which have the intake and exhaust in and out the bottom of the cylinders.

They are also supposed to provide a finer and more consistent spray of fuel but apparently they don’t think this will make a discernable difference since they don’t plan to make injectors for the tuned intake engines.

I keep my A36 in Hayward . . . and am flying it this morning. I’ll keep my eyes open for 42CD.

One of the things I like about the SR22, at least in its concept, is the TCM IO/550, which the A36 crowd has worked over pretty hard for 16 years and for which a robust aftermarket of mods now exists. It’s a thoroughly vetted engine.

One wishes TCM would do this itself. The two big US engine mfrs. seem paralyzed to improve their own products . . . it’s always the vendor or aftermarket mod suppliers like GAMI that lead the way. Maybe the engine mfrs, with deeper pockets, fret that trial lawyers will interpret any improvement as an admission that previous engines had flaws. It’s a rotten situation for all.

The Klapmeiers should get all over TCM!

RK

Things have not gone smoothly with the ferry situation. N142CD is still in Hayward, awaiting FAA paperwork, but another problem has arisen. Apparently an SR20 in Europe had an engine problem, I don’t have any details but it involved low cylinder compression. This information was passed to Rob Leach, and he has had a compression test done on N142CD’s engine - the results were not good. Two cylinders have unacceptable compression - and this is a brand new engine.

We’re currently waiting to hear from Continental as to what they are going to do about it. Rob’s preference, not surprisingly, is to have a new engine fitted.

This is now the third engine problem on an SR20, and TCM’s other engines have also been affected by the two previous (crankshaft SB/ADB, magneto problem recently). It doesn’t inspire confidence.

7

Dear Mr. Anonymous:

What you just said was nonsense. Could you

please say again in a properly constructed

sentence or two?

Thanks.

8

Some seem a little quick to blame Cirrus and Continental for the reported problems.

Any new aircraft will have some teething problems.

Cessna has had more than their share putting old models back into production.

Lycoming could have the same problem with cranks, how many suppliers are there of this steel?

The compression problems with red coloration sound like the result of overleaning.

This may or may not be the case and if it is it may be pilot caused or a problem with the aircraft.

It will be interesting to see how it sorts out.

According to the TCM engine manual the engine has had a test cell run-in at the factory and should be leaned to best power (75 degrees rich of peak) or richer during the first hour of flight at 75% power and for the next hour no leaner than best power with power varying between 65% and 75%.

Did Cirrus do this?

The most crucial break-in is done at the factory (N116CD had ten hours on the hobbs when I got it) so even if pilot induced it could hard to pin down just when and how it happened.

Until the oil consumption stabilizes, the engine is breaking in and should be operated at 65 to 75% power (except for takeoff and initial climb at full rich and full power) and no leaner than best power with richer settings if needed to keep cylinder temperature below 400 degrees.

The engine automatically leans for altitude (hopefully it does this accurately).

The pilots of the affected aircraft may not have known this and leaned some for altitude, though if done correctly with the EGT this would have resulted in a return to the same setting.

So far my worst problem was having to replace the flap relays but I haven’t seen anything within twice the price that I would rather have.

I’m certainly happy to have discovered this site. Seems more info flows here than anyplace else.

With the TCM problems arising AND their responses I’m having reservations about my choice of aircraft. I will be selling a perfectly flyable bird and hoped to be moving into a relatively trouble free one. If TCM/CD can’t get their act together then some of you will be moving up a slot. Don’t want to be that way but I rely on my plane too much for it to be grounded while someone takes their sweet time to get off their butts to perform the job they are paid quite handsomely(I’m sure)for. Issue correction response in a timely manner is one of the major factors in a successful company.

9

Some seem a little quick to blame Cirrus and Continental for the reported problems.
I don’t think anyone is blaming Cirrus, but Continental must accept the blame for their engines.
Any new aircraft will have some teething problems.
Yes, but the IO-360 is not a new engine - it has been around for many years and used in several aircraft (Piper Seneca, Cessna Mixmaster, Mooney M20J and probably others). It’s a proven design - the problems lately are build quality issues.

Lycoming could have the same problem with cranks, how many suppliers are there of this steel?

Not many, and they probably got their steel from the same source. But it appears that both Lycoming and TCM didn’t do enough in the way of acceptance testing of the materials and components that they source from outside suppliers.

Anytime people complain about the fact that the only aircraft engines available are warmed-over 1940’s designs, others justify this by saying that at least they’re proven, dependable engines. The SR20 fleet in the last 5 months has had at least a 25% rate of engine failures or groundings - that’s a terrible record.

The compression problems with red coloration sound like the result of overleaning.

I talked to a couple of people about this, and there are several possible causes, of which overleaning is only one.

The pilots of the affected aircraft may not have known this and leaned some for altitude, though if done correctly with the EGT this would have resulted in a return to the same setting.

The plane has only 25 hours on it. 8 of those were flown by Cirrus factory pilots, who can be assumed to know what they’re doing. The remaining hours were flown by two very experienced pilots, one of whom is also an A&P. It seems most unlikely they would have mishandled the engine. In any case, I’m not convinced that 16 hours (and that’s Hobbs time, not flight or cruise time) running could cause the damage seen, and it should have affected all cylinders.

The break-in procedure in the SR20 POH is to run at not less than 75% power in cruise for the first 25 hours or until oil consumption stabilizes. No mention is made of any different leaning procedures during break-in. This break-in is to ensure the rings are properly sealing.

The issue is not whether the plane is any good (it is) or whether the engine is fundamentally sound (it is - the IO-360 has a good reputation) or even whether TCM are having some teething troubles now that they’re actually building a significant number of new engines (they are) but how they deal with the problems as they arise.

The correct approach in this case, from a customer service point of view, would have been to replace the engine so the ferry could proceed with minimum delay, then investigate the cause and decide further action without any time pressure.

TCM’s first response to the compression results was “that’s probably normal” (wrong!). Their next response was “replace 3 cylinders” followed by “replace 6 cylinders”. Not good enough.

Anyway, TCM have the bad cylinders now, so hopefully next week we will have some answers.

10

The compression problems with red coloration sound like the result of overleaning.

I checked with Bill Marvel, who flew in the SR20 from Duluth to Hayward (mostly in the right seat) and who is an A&P. He said that after takeoff they used 2500 rpm, full rich for climb, then used the book figures to set the cruise power and fuel flow. The EGT never went over 1400 and was mostly closer to 1300.

About the only criticism you could make of that regime is that at 8000 ft and higher, you can’t get 75% power at 2500, so some of the time the engine was being operated below 75% power, whereas for break-in, 75% or higher is recommended.

But that certainly won’t have caused the current problems, and with those EGTs the engine was not overleaned.

11

Clyde,

What has been CD’s response to the issue and involvement in the “solution” thus far?

12

Our speculations are likely to be as accurate as typical news stories are on aviation matters.
I think Continental’s wanting $50 per year from engine owners for online information is an indication of how much they are oriented to providing service and how much they are milking the cash cow.
The IO-360-ES must be a significantly new engine.
The main differences from other Cont. IO-360 models that I’ve gleaned from the TCM manual are:

  1. 2000 hour versus 1500 hour TBO.
  2. One third lower max allowable oil consumption.
  3. 2 qts. less oil capacity.
  4. power reduction after initial climbout to 29.5 in. MP versus 28 in. MP.
  5. Mixture during descent full rich instead of best power.
  6. Improved fuel specifics, especially at low throttle settings.
  7. The other engines produce 210 hp at 2800 RPM and 28 in. MP whereas the -ES engine produces no more than that at 2800 RPM and 29.5 in. MP.
    I really would like to know what the improvements were that made those differences.
    Does anyone out there have more info on this?
    I suspect that the tuned intake allows the engine to run at idle with a leaner mixture and that full rich is leaner than most engines which need a very rich setting to idle properly.
    I wonder if this smoother running engine lends itself to over leaning by not running rough until it is extremely lean?

Some seem a little quick to blame Cirrus and Continental for the reported problems.

I don’t think anyone is blaming Cirrus, but Continental must accept the blame for their engines.

Any new aircraft will have some teething problems.

Yes, but the IO-360 is not a new engine - it has been around for many years and used in several aircraft (Piper Seneca, Cessna Mixmaster, Mooney M20J and probably others). It’s a proven design - the problems lately are build quality issues.

Lycoming could have the same problem with cranks, how many suppliers are there of this steel?

Not many, and they probably got their steel from the same source. But it appears that both Lycoming and TCM didn’t do enough in the way of acceptance testing of the materials and components that they source from outside suppliers.

Anytime people complain about the fact that the only aircraft engines available are warmed-over 1940’s designs, others justify this by saying that at least they’re proven, dependable engines. The SR20 fleet in the last 5 months has had at least a 25% rate of engine failures or groundings - that’s a terrible record.

The compression problems with red coloration sound like the result of overleaning.

I talked to a couple of people about this, and there are several possible causes, of which overleaning is only one.

The pilots of the affected aircraft may not have known this and leaned some for altitude, though if done correctly with the EGT this would have resulted in a return to the same setting.

The plane has only 25 hours on it. 8 of those were flown by Cirrus factory pilots, who can be assumed to know what they’re doing. The remaining hours were flown by two very experienced pilots, one of whom is also an A&P. It seems most unlikely they would have mishandled the engine. In any case, I’m not convinced that 16 hours (and that’s Hobbs time, not flight or cruise time) running could cause the damage seen, and it should have affected all cylinders.

The break-in procedure in the SR20 POH is to run at not less than 75% power in cruise for the first 25 hours or until oil consumption stabilizes. No mention is made of any different leaning procedures during break-in. This break-in is to ensure the rings are properly sealing.

The issue is not whether the plane is any good (it is) or whether the engine is fundamentally sound (it is - the IO-360 has a good reputation) or even whether TCM are having some teething troubles now that they’re actually building a significant number of new engines (they are) but how they deal with the problems as they arise.

The correct approach in this case, from a customer service point of view, would have been to replace the engine so the ferry could proceed with minimum delay, then investigate the cause and decide further action without any time pressure.

TCM’s first response to the compression results was “that’s probably normal” (wrong!). Their next response was “replace 3 cylinders” followed by “replace 6 cylinders”. Not good enough.

Anyway, TCM have the bad cylinders now, so hopefully next week we will have some answers.

13

Clyde,

What has been CD’s response to the issue and involvement in the “solution” thus far?

I’ve talked several times to Mike Busch, who is CD’s customer service guy. He agrees with us that the engine should be replaced, and offered to have one of CD’s new engines in stock shipped overnight to California, but needed TCM’s authorization (since they warranty the engine) to do so.

He also offered to TCM to have a trusted A&P friend of his who happens to be in the hangar next door at Hayward get involved, to provide an independent third party.

I don’t know exactly what CD have said to TCM, but Mike assures me they have pushed very hard and are continuing to do so.

So at this point in time I have no gripes with Cirrus, and they appear to be very much on our side. It’s TCM who are the stumbling block. I would point out that Cirrus have quite a bit at stake with this aircraft, as it will be the first one in Australia, and will be available on a limited basis to the local Cirrus agent as a demonstrator for a period of time.

So far I’ve refrained from making this matter any more public than this forum, because to do so (e.g. contacting Avweb) will probably hurt CD more than it will TCM, and I don’t want to do that. But if CD can’t get the result we need within the next week, then I will go down that route (and Cirrus know that).

14

We are buying an airplane from Cirrus and paying Cirus for it. We did not deal with TCM So, why should we have to deal with TCM when there is an engine problem or for that matter with any other vendors (Garmin, ARNAV, etc.) in case of problems. Cirrus should handel the problem by replacing the engine and deal with TCM on their own. It makes me feel like CD ispassing the problem to make it easier for them. We don’t deal with suppliers of engines when we buy cars, we don’t deal with suppliers of parts when we buy electronics. Why should we deal with suppliers of the SR20? This is a major problem in handling customer problems, because we did not choose to deal with these companies, Cirrus did and they are the ones that have the purchasing and money relationships with them and not us.

15

We are buying an airplane from Cirrus and paying Cirus for it. We did not deal with TCM So, why should we have to deal with TCM when there is an engine problem or for that matter with any other vendors (Garmin, ARNAV, etc.) in case of problems. Cirrus should handel the problem by replacing the engine and deal with TCM on their own. It makes me feel like CD ispassing the problem to make it easier for them. We don’t deal with suppliers of engines when we buy cars, we don’t deal with suppliers of parts when we buy electronics. Why should we deal with suppliers of the SR20? This is a major problem in handling customer problems, because we did not choose to deal with these companies, Cirrus did and they are the ones that have the purchasing and money relationships with them and not us.

As a position holder, I totally agree. Enough passing the buck.

16

I can not believe i am going to say this but…Reza you hit the nail on the head with this one!!! Ed

We are buying an airplane from Cirrus and paying Cirus for it. We did not deal with TCM So, why should we have to deal with TCM when there is an engine problem or for that matter with any other vendors (Garmin, ARNAV, etc.) in case of problems. Cirrus should handel the problem by replacing the engine and deal with TCM on their own. It makes me feel like CD ispassing the problem to make it easier for them. We don’t deal with suppliers of engines when we buy cars, we don’t deal with suppliers of parts when we buy electronics. Why should we deal with suppliers of the SR20? This is a major problem in handling customer problems, because we did not choose to deal with these companies, Cirrus did and they are the ones that have the purchasing and money relationships with them and not us.

17

You are both wrong!

Look at the warantee for the tires on your car. They are covered by the tire maker not the auto manufacturer.

CD could not possibly have the technical expertise in someone elses manufactured product to support it.

Where things are askew is that CD should have taken the fight on behalf of their customers and used any leverage of theirs to facilitate corrective action from TCM.

With a failure rate of 25% it is probably time to either TSO a new (lycoming or franklin) engine or at least get an STC to give people a choice.

I can not believe i am going to say this but…Reza you hit the nail on the head with this one!!! Ed

We are buying an airplane from Cirrus and paying Cirus for it. We did not deal with TCM So, why should we have to deal with TCM when there is an engine problem or for that matter with any other vendors (Garmin, ARNAV, etc.) in case of problems. Cirrus should handel the problem by replacing the engine and deal with TCM on their own. It makes me feel like CD ispassing the problem to make it easier for them. We don’t deal with suppliers of engines when we buy cars, we don’t deal with suppliers of parts when we buy electronics. Why should we deal with suppliers of the SR20? This is a major problem in handling customer problems, because we did not choose to deal with these companies, Cirrus did and they are the ones that have the purchasing and money relationships with them and not us.

18

You are both wrong!

Look at the warantee for the tires on your car. They are covered by the tire maker not the auto manufacturer.

If the tires of the airplane had given trouble, I may be more likely to agree but this is the engine we are talking about and it didn’t even make it home. Based on what I have heard so far, the possibility of abuse by the pilots envolved is minimal. michael

CD could not possibly have the technical expertise in someone elses manufactured product to support it.

Granted, but this is not an airplane purchased from a used airplane dealer. This is a NEW airplane and with it comes the responsibility to stand behind your product even if it is a conglomeration of other mamufacturers parts. In my opinion, the proper thing to have done was for Cirrus to have shipped ASAP a complete engine to replace the problematic one and sorted out the problem on there own time with Continental. Clyde has exibited a remarkable amount of patients. michael

Where things are askew is that CD should have taken the fight on behalf of their customers and used any leverage of theirs to facilitate corrective action from TCM.

With a failure rate of 25% it is probably time to either TSO a new (lycoming or franklin) engine or at least get an STC to give people a choice.

I can not believe i am going to say this but…Reza you hit the nail on the head with this one!!! Ed

We are buying an airplane from Cirrus and paying Cirus for it. We did not deal with TCM So, why should we have to deal with TCM when there is an engine problem or for that matter with any other vendors (Garmin, ARNAV, etc.) in case of problems. Cirrus should handel the problem by replacing the engine and deal with TCM on their own. It makes me feel like CD ispassing the problem to make it easier for them. We don’t deal with suppliers of engines when we buy cars, we don’t deal with suppliers of parts when we buy electronics. Why should we deal with suppliers of the SR20? This is a major problem in handling customer problems, because we did not choose to deal with these companies, Cirrus did and they are the ones that have the purchasing and money relationships with them and not us.

19

You are both wrong!

You are the one who is DEAD wrong!

I am a customer and I am buying A (as in one) product from Cirrus, I am not buying a basket of products which includes parts (like the engine) and putting them together. When I buy a product I buy the warranty to go with it. Toyota gives you the warranty from he tire company, but if you buy a new car and have problems with the tires, Toyota stands behind the problem. I recently had an engine problem with a BMW 740i - Model 1994. The warranty has long expired. Would you believe BMW put in a brand new engine for me! I hve no idea what the problem was or how much this brand new 8 cylinder engine costs but I love BMW for this act and I would buy BMWs for the rest of my life and recommend it to everyone. Can Clyde say this about Cirrus - TCM, honestly? I also have had tire problems with new cars and the dealer has taken care of the problems as well.

We expect BMW quality and BMW like serce from Cirrus. What the warranty says, does not matter in extreme cases. They should do what makes sense.

I still think you are wrong, but if you insist when you have problems with your Cirrus, don’t call them, take care of it yourself and that may speed up service for those who believe CIRRUS SHOULD TAKE CARE OF THINGS.

20

You are both wrong!

Look at the warantee for the tires on your car. They are covered by the tire maker not the auto manufacturer.

CD could not possibly have the technical expertise in someone elses manufactured product to support it.

Where things are askew is that CD should have taken the fight on behalf of their customers and used any leverage of theirs to facilitate corrective action from TCM.

With a failure rate of 25% it is probably time to either TSO a new (lycoming or franklin) engine or at least get an STC to give people a choice.

I can not believe i am going to say this but…Reza you hit the nail on the head with this one!!! Ed

We are buying an airplane from Cirrus and paying Cirus for it. We did not deal with TCM So, why should we have to deal with TCM when there is an engine problem or for that matter with any other vendors (Garmin, ARNAV, etc.) in case of problems. Cirrus should handel the problem by replacing the engine and deal with TCM on their own. It makes me feel like CD ispassing the problem to make it easier for them. We don’t deal with suppliers of engines when we buy cars, we don’t deal with suppliers of parts when we buy electronics. Why should we deal with suppliers of the SR20? This is a major problem in handling customer problems, because we did not choose to deal with these companies, Cirrus did and they are the ones that have the purchasing and money relationships with them and not us.