Engine problems get worse - serious questions about TCM

Guest Discussion
1

The latest developments in the saga of N142CD, still stuck in Hayward.
Due to serious doubts about TCM’s explanation of the problems with the engine (they said the low compression was due to fuel deposits, left by extended idling or low power running, with no sign of overheating) we elected to have the remaining three cylinders, and the three new ones provided by TCM, sent to a well-known engine shop in central CA to be checked out.
The results were rather shocking. Firstly, the cylinder kits supplied by TCM had no pistons. The new cylinders and the old ones showed no signs of valve grind problems, but the old ones did show significant evidence of overheating. Of the 6 original cylinders, only one had no exhaust valve leakage! The others had valve, seat and ring damage caused by significant overheating.
I am still waiting for the full report, but I am told that it is most likely caused by incorrect adjustment of the fuel-injection system. I am also told that the IO-360ES engine (unique to the SR20) has a fuel-injection adjustment procedure that is quite different to any other Continental engine.
The most serious issue to arise from this is the fact that TCM have apparently lied to us about the cause of the compression problems. There can be no doubt that the 3 cylinders returned to them were suffering the same overheating damage, yet they made a point of saying there was no evidence of overheating.

Unless there is some good explanation for this, their actions verge on criminal deceit, in that they placed at risk not only our aircraft, but the life of our ferry pilot. I was assured by Bill Blackwood from TCM that the engine was fit to fly the Pacific, yet it was not, and he should have known that.

I’ll post more details as they come to hand. If there does turn out to be an injector problem, this would explain the cylinder failure in the European aircraft, too.

2

My sympathies, Clyde. I’m sure this will all get sorted out eventually, but for now the big Lycoming in the '85 TB20 I just bought is looking pretty good to me. Yet it too has some problems. The #2 cylinder is being replaced as we speak due low compression (15/80) caused by a well known exhaust valve wobble problem in that engine.
Aircraft engines are such a pain sometimes.
Good luck.
Joe Mazza

The latest developments in the saga of N142CD, still stuck in Hayward.

Due to serious doubts about TCM’s explanation of the problems with the engine (they said the low compression was due to fuel deposits, left by extended idling or low power running, with no sign of overheating) we elected to have the remaining three cylinders, and the three new ones provided by TCM, sent to a well-known engine shop in central CA to be checked out.

The results were rather shocking. Firstly, the cylinder kits supplied by TCM had no pistons. The new cylinders and the old ones showed no signs of valve grind problems, but the old ones did show significant evidence of overheating. Of the 6 original cylinders, only one had no exhaust valve leakage! The others had valve, seat and ring damage caused by significant overheating.

I am still waiting for the full report, but I am told that it is most likely caused by incorrect adjustment of the fuel-injection system. I am also told that the IO-360ES engine (unique to the SR20) has a fuel-injection adjustment procedure that is quite different to any other Continental engine.

The most serious issue to arise from this is the fact that TCM have apparently lied to us about the cause of the compression problems. There can be no doubt that the 3 cylinders returned to them were suffering the same overheating damage, yet they made a point of saying there was no evidence of overheating.

Unless there is some good explanation for this, their actions verge on criminal deceit, in that they placed at risk not only our aircraft, but the life of our ferry pilot. I was assured by Bill Blackwood from TCM that the engine was fit to fly the Pacific, yet it was not, and he should have known that.

I’ll post more details as they come to hand. If there does turn out to be an injector problem, this would explain the cylinder failure in the European aircraft, too.

3

I spoke to Cirrus a couple of hours ago, and they had been in touch with TCM, and applied pressure to them to fix this situation. While I was on the phone, a call came in from TCM to say they had approved replacing the engine. I’m still waiting on details, but I expect Cirrus will ship an engine to Hayward, hopefully it has already left.

I know this whole mess doesn’t help Cirrus, but I am happy with their support here, although it took a little longer than it should have. I still have serious reservations about TCM and their quality control.

4

Clyde, main points: thanks for running the forum, and good luck finally getting your plane.

I do have a question about the pattern of engine problems that has emerged. This may sound a little snotty, but it really is just a quest for data.

Setting the well-known crankshaft issues to one side, am I right in thinking that the serious cylinder/compression/overheating problems have all been in planes flown by long-distance ferry pilots? Any plane in Europe would by definition fit this category. Your plane has obviously not made the long haul yet but was flown by your (admirable sounding) ferry pilot from Duluth to the west coast.
As far as I can tell from the reports, these bad-cylinder problems have not shown up in the other couple-dozen planes in the US fleet that have not been through the ferry pilot process. Is that right?
If it is right, it would of course suggest a hypothesis: that something in the process of ferry-pilot handling might be related to these heat-damage problems. I am NOT advancing this as a theory. I’m just asking: am I right in thinking that all the serious engine problems have involved ferried planes? Is there any conclusion to draw from that, if it’s so?
Thanks, and good luck getting your plane. Jim F.

The latest developments in the saga of N142CD, still stuck in Hayward.

Due to serious doubts about TCM’s explanation of the problems with the engine (they said the low compression was due to fuel deposits, left by extended idling or low power running, with no sign of overheating) we elected to have the remaining three cylinders, and the three new ones provided by TCM, sent to a well-known engine shop in central CA to be checked out.

The results were rather shocking. Firstly, the cylinder kits supplied by TCM had no pistons. The new cylinders and the old ones showed no signs of valve grind problems, but the old ones did show significant evidence of overheating. Of the 6 original cylinders, only one had no exhaust valve leakage! The others had valve, seat and ring damage caused by significant overheating.

I am still waiting for the full report, but I am told that it is most likely caused by incorrect adjustment of the fuel-injection system. I am also told that the IO-360ES engine (unique to the SR20) has a fuel-injection adjustment procedure that is quite different to any other Continental engine.

The most serious issue to arise from this is the fact that TCM have apparently lied to us about the cause of the compression problems. There can be no doubt that the 3 cylinders returned to them were suffering the same overheating damage, yet they made a point of saying there was no evidence of overheating.

Unless there is some good explanation for this, their actions verge on criminal deceit, in that they placed at risk not only our aircraft, but the life of our ferry pilot. I was assured by Bill Blackwood from TCM that the engine was fit to fly the Pacific, yet it was not, and he should have known that.

I’ll post more details as they come to hand. If there does turn out to be an injector problem, this would explain the cylinder failure in the European aircraft, too.

5

Clyde,

As a position holder (#527), I enjoy the remarks and reports posted on this site. This engine story however is not any longer fun, but serious stuff. You must be very frustrated by now and will make other owners concerned.

It is a total surprise to me that Cirrus is not playing a much more active role in this. There must be at least an engine specialist who could give an opinion. I suppose that we deal through Cirrus in solving problems under warranty. I remember RezaÂ’s comments and the car comparison he made. I am a BMW driver and have dealt warranty issues in the past thatÂ’s why IÂ’m still a happy BMW driver. I am not sure if I am going to be a happy Cirrus driver if they donÂ’t get involved and responsive.

Is there any news from the plane in Europe?

Hein de Groot

The Netherlands

6

FWIW: When I left N144CD in Bangor last week for the ferry to Europe, the Hobbs was at 93.9 hours of pattern/approach as well as (leaned) xc work at as high at 13,000ft. Apart from peculiar starting habits (which I figured out), the powerplant performed as advertised, though the postings on this board are definitly uinsettling.

Keeping an eye on this…

Han

Clyde,

As a position holder (#527), I enjoy the remarks and reports posted on this site. This engine story however is not any longer fun, but serious stuff. You must be very frustrated by now and will make other owners concerned.

It is a total surprise to me that Cirrus is not playing a much more active role in this. There must be at least an engine specialist who could give an opinion. I suppose that we deal through Cirrus in solving problems under warranty. I remember RezaÂ’s comments and the car comparison he made. I am a BMW driver and have dealt warranty issues in the past thatÂ’s why IÂ’m still a happy BMW driver. I am not sure if I am going to be a happy Cirrus driver if they donÂ’t get involved and responsive.

Is there any news from the plane in Europe?

Hein de Groot

The Netherlands

7

Clyde,

As a position holder (#527), I enjoy the remarks and reports posted on this site. This engine story however is not any longer fun, but serious stuff. You must be very frustrated by now and will make other owners concerned.

It is a total surprise to me that Cirrus is not playing a much more active role in this. There must be at least an engine specialist who could give an opinion. I suppose that we deal through Cirrus in solving problems under warranty. I remember RezaÂ’s comments and the car comparison he made. I am a BMW driver and have dealt warranty issues in the past thatÂ’s why IÂ’m still a happy BMW driver. I am not sure if I am going to be a happy Cirrus driver if they donÂ’t get involved and responsive.

Is there any news from the plane in Europe?

Hein de Groot

The Netherlands

Sorry to harp on this, but how is it that so many well-meaning people can form such firm opinions on so little direct information. I agree totally that this is an alarming development, but how precisely is it that you know that Cirrus is not “involved and responsive”?

All Clyde has said is that it has taken longer than it should. To use your example, I have owned 5 BMW’s, and can think of at least three times when a major repair “took longer than it should”, but they ended up doing the right thing.

I guess people feel better when they thump their chests. 'Tis the the nature of man. I hope confidence is soon restored in TCM. I for one have no lack of confidence in Cirrus, other than in their ability to estimate how long something will take. I’m also glad I don’t have one of the first 100 or so airplanes.

When I had Lasik two years ago, my cousin the refractive surgeon told me, “You don’t want to be one of anybody’s first 100 procedures.” I was her 500th and it went beautifully. The same goes for new airplanes, IMO…

8

Clyde,

As a position holder (#527), I enjoy the remarks and reports posted on this site. This engine story however is not any longer fun, but serious stuff. You must be very frustrated by now and will make other owners concerned.

It is a total surprise to me that Cirrus is not playing a much more active role in this. There must be at least an engine specialist who could give an opinion. I suppose that we deal through Cirrus in solving problems under warranty. I remember RezaÂ’s comments and the car comparison he made. I am a BMW driver and have dealt warranty issues in the past thatÂ’s why IÂ’m still a happy BMW driver. I am not sure if I am going to be a happy Cirrus driver if they donÂ’t get involved and responsive.

Is there any news from the plane in Europe?

Hein de Groot

The Netherlands

Sorry to harp on this, but how is it that so many well-meaning people can form such firm opinions on so little direct information. I agree totally that this is an alarming development, but how precisely is it that you know that Cirrus is not “involved and responsive”?

All Clyde has said is that it has taken longer than it should. To use your example, I have owned 5 BMW’s, and can think of at least three times when a major repair “took longer than it should”, but they ended up doing the right thing.

I guess people feel better when they thump their chests. 'Tis the the nature of man. I hope confidence is soon restored in TCM. I for one have no lack of confidence in Cirrus, other than in their ability to estimate how long something will take. I’m also glad I don’t have one of the first 100 or so airplanes.

When I had Lasik two years ago, my cousin the refractive surgeon told me, “You don’t want to be one of anybody’s first 100 procedures.” I was her 500th and it went beautifully. The same goes for new airplanes, IMO…

9

how about passing along what worked for starting.

Thanks.

FWIW: When I left N144CD in Bangor last week for the ferry to Europe, the Hobbs was at 93.9 hours of pattern/approach as well as (leaned) xc work at as high at 13,000ft. Apart from peculiar starting habits (which I figured out), the powerplant performed as advertised, though the postings on this board are definitly uinsettling.

Keeping an eye on this…

Han

Clyde,

As a position holder (#527), I enjoy the remarks and reports posted on this site. This engine story however is not any longer fun, but serious stuff. You must be very frustrated by now and will make other owners concerned.

It is a total surprise to me that Cirrus is not playing a much more active role in this. There must be at least an engine specialist who could give an opinion. I suppose that we deal through Cirrus in solving problems under warranty. I remember RezaÂ’s comments and the car comparison he made. I am a BMW driver and have dealt warranty issues in the past thatÂ’s why IÂ’m still a happy BMW driver. I am not sure if I am going to be a happy Cirrus driver if they donÂ’t get involved and responsive.

Is there any news from the plane in Europe?

Hein de Groot

The Netherlands

10

“Cold start”:

Prime for 12 seconds (throttle full forward) then take throttle back and open the throttle one “crack” (about 3-4 mm, equals to 1/7.5th of an inch for the metrically challenged). After firing up, gently increase throttle until it runs smoothly.

“Warm/hot start”:

Same procedure, but prime for a few seconds only (if any) and keep close to the boost pump switch to “aid” getting all cylinders alive once it start turning.

I still have to reconcile this real life experience with what’s written in the POH, but for sure my car is less peculiar in starting up in the morning…

HK (N144CD)

how about passing along what worked for starting.

Thanks.

FWIW: When I left N144CD in Bangor last week for the ferry to Europe, the Hobbs was at 93.9 hours of pattern/approach as well as (leaned) xc work at as high at 13,000ft. Apart from peculiar starting habits (which I figured out), the powerplant performed as advertised, though the postings on this board are definitly uinsettling.

Keeping an eye on this…

Han

Clyde,

As a position holder (#527), I enjoy the remarks and reports posted on this site. This engine story however is not any longer fun, but serious stuff. You must be very frustrated by now and will make other owners concerned.

It is a total surprise to me that Cirrus is not playing a much more active role in this. There must be at least an engine specialist who could give an opinion. I suppose that we deal through Cirrus in solving problems under warranty. I remember RezaÂ’s comments and the car comparison he made. I am a BMW driver and have dealt warranty issues in the past thatÂ’s why IÂ’m still a happy BMW driver. I am not sure if I am going to be a happy Cirrus driver if they donÂ’t get involved and responsive.

Is there any news from the plane in Europe?

Hein de Groot

The Netherlands

11

am I right in thinking that the serious cylinder/compression/overheating problems have all been in planes flown by long-distance ferry pilots?

Since there are only two engines that have failed in a manner consistent with overheating/leaning problems, I don’t think you can say there is a pattern. You can say that most of the planes ferried are fine. I also don’t think you can lump ferry pilots into a group - they’re just pilots.

At this point in time I really can’t say where the problem originated - there are several possibilities, about the only thing you can say is that at some point the engine was run too hot. I really don’t think there’s much point in speculating about where and by whom this was done until we have more facts.

I did query Bill Marvel, who flew in the plane with Rob Leach, about the leaning procedure followed and I am quite satisfied that what he told me they did could not have caused the problems seen - the EGT and CHT were well below the range where any damage could have been done.

I have my own suspicions, but I’m not going to share those at this time.

12

As one of the two pilots who flew N142CD to Hayward, and an A&P who has done research on Lycoming valve problems, I can at least help answer.
There is nothing unusual or abnormal about ferry engine operations. The only thing different from most flights is that cruise power is set for hours at a time at a constant, leaned mixture at or below 75% power. In Lycs, we determined that this “mission” is the kiss of death to valves on the copilot side of parallel valve engines. It had to do with the design of the oil system which provided less oil to that side for oil cooling of the sodium filled valves. Much of that has been solved with the new valve guide that is much more durable in this environment and does not require as much cooling.
N142CD was flown the entire trip out at recommended power settings, both rpm and manifold pressure, as well as fuel flow, on every leg. We leaned by fuel flow, not by EGT, although I did once verify that at 10,500 MSL, 100 rich of peak was about the fuel flow that was recommended. All should have gone well. Also, there were no ferry tanks in the plane for the trip to Hayward. All legs were flown on just internal fuel so there were no unusually long flights. Four hours was the longest. Max CHT was 350. Highest EGT I recall was about 1400. One point. These airplanes all ought to have 6 probe EGT/CHT systems with a simultaneous readout of all cylinders. What they give you is not really adequate in this day and age. Too many things can happen in there that you cannot see with the current instrumentation.
The concern for all of you is that a former Continental engineer revealed to us an unpublished fuel injection setup that is known to the factory regarding this engine in this airframe. That is at issue now that the new engine will be sent. Clearly, whatever caused the problems in the former engine cannot be allowed in this one. We are trying to get that procedure and make sure Cirrus has it too. If this is the cause of the problem in this plane, which we believe, it may well impact others.
Kudos to Cirrus for putting pressure on TCM to get this new engine. I think it should have been done earlier, but late is better than never.
Hope this comes out OK. I have never been on a discussion group before.

Clyde, main points: thanks for running the forum, and good luck finally getting your plane.

I do have a question about the pattern of engine problems that has emerged. This may sound a little snotty, but it really is just a quest for data.

Setting the well-known crankshaft issues to one side, am I right in thinking that the serious cylinder/compression/overheating problems have all been in planes flown by long-distance ferry pilots? Any plane in Europe would by definition fit this category. Your plane has obviously not made the long haul yet but was flown by your (admirable sounding) ferry pilot from Duluth to the west coast.

As far as I can tell from the reports, these bad-cylinder problems have not shown up in the other couple-dozen planes in the US fleet that have not been through the ferry pilot process. Is that right?

If it is right, it would of course suggest a hypothesis: that something in the process of ferry-pilot handling might be related to these heat-damage problems. I am NOT advancing this as a theory. I’m just asking: am I right in thinking that all the serious engine problems have involved ferried planes? Is there any conclusion to draw from that, if it’s so?

Thanks, and good luck getting your plane. Jim F.

The latest developments in the saga of N142CD, still stuck in Hayward.

Due to serious doubts about TCM’s explanation of the problems with the engine (they said the low compression was due to fuel deposits, left by extended idling or low power running, with no sign of overheating) we elected to have the remaining three cylinders, and the three new ones provided by TCM, sent to a well-known engine shop in central CA to be checked out.

The results were rather shocking. Firstly, the cylinder kits supplied by TCM had no pistons. The new cylinders and the old ones showed no signs of valve grind problems, but the old ones did show significant evidence of overheating. Of the 6 original cylinders, only one had no exhaust valve leakage! The others had valve, seat and ring damage caused by significant overheating.

I am still waiting for the full report, but I am told that it is most likely caused by incorrect adjustment of the fuel-injection system. I am also told that the IO-360ES engine (unique to the SR20) has a fuel-injection adjustment procedure that is quite different to any other Continental engine.

The most serious issue to arise from this is the fact that TCM have apparently lied to us about the cause of the compression problems. There can be no doubt that the 3 cylinders returned to them were suffering the same overheating damage, yet they made a point of saying there was no evidence of overheating.

Unless there is some good explanation for this, their actions verge on criminal deceit, in that they placed at risk not only our aircraft, but the life of our ferry pilot. I was assured by Bill Blackwood from TCM that the engine was fit to fly the Pacific, yet it was not, and he should have known that.

I’ll post more details as they come to hand. If there does turn out to be an injector problem, this would explain the cylinder failure in the European aircraft, too.

13

My plane was ferried from Duluth to California. So far no sign of cylinder problems (knock on wood). I’ll have compression checked at the 100 hour inspection just to be sure.

14

As one of the two pilots who flew N142CD to Hayward, and an A&P who has done research on Lycoming valve problems, I can at least help answer.

There is nothing unusual or abnormal about ferry engine operations. The only thing different from most flights is that cruise power is set for hours at a time at a constant, leaned mixture at or below 75% power. In Lycs, we determined that this “mission” is the kiss of death to valves on the copilot side of parallel valve engines. It had to do with the design of the oil system which provided less oil to that side for oil cooling of the sodium filled valves. Much of that has been solved with the new valve guide that is much more durable in this environment and does not require as much cooling.

N142CD was flown the entire trip out at recommended power settings, both rpm and manifold pressure, as well as fuel flow, on every leg. We leaned by fuel flow, not by EGT, although I did once verify that at 10,500 MSL, 100 rich of peak was about the fuel flow that was recommended. All should have gone well. Also, there were no ferry tanks in the plane for the trip to Hayward. All legs were flown on just internal fuel so there were no unusually long flights. Four hours was the longest. Max CHT was 350. Highest EGT I recall was about 1400. One point. These airplanes all ought to have 6 probe EGT/CHT systems with a simultaneous readout of all cylinders. What they give you is not really adequate in this day and age. Too many things can happen in there that you cannot see with the current instrumentation.

The concern for all of you is that a former Continental engineer revealed to us an unpublished fuel injection setup that is known to the factory regarding this engine in this airframe. That is at issue now that the new engine will be sent. Clearly, whatever caused the problems in the former engine cannot be allowed in this one. We are trying to get that procedure and make sure Cirrus has it too. If this is the cause of the problem in this plane, which we believe, it may well impact others.

Kudos to Cirrus for putting pressure on TCM to get this new engine. I think it should have been done earlier, but late is better than never.

Hope this comes out OK. I have never been on a discussion group before.

Thanks for posting, Bill. It came out great. Any more info about this fuel injector setup procedure would be great. Clyde, was this part of your speculation about the problem?

15

Very informative answer; thanks a lot, and hope this gets cleared up.

16

Any more info about this fuel injector setup procedure would be great. Clyde, was this part of your speculation about the problem?

No, and in fact I’m not sure it has anything to do with it. There is a special procedure, Cirrus Design has it, and it will be used to set up the new engine, and AFAIK was used to set up the original engine. My suspicions lie in quite a different direction, but I’m not going to speculate publicly until I have more information.