I suspect that the tail strikes that have happened in Cirri have probably been due to flaring too high and dropping to the runway in a nose high attitude. I don’t believe you have any risk of striking the tail if you flare at the right height. With the landing gear in the normal position the nose attitude required for the tail to touch the ground is way higher than the stall attitude.
In reply to:
My experience is that if you get too low on the approach and therefore have to carry a significant amount of power on short final to make the runway then it is hard to get the flare right.
Amen, Clyde. My least-perfect landings have been when I got too low and added power to “drag it in”.
-Mike
In reply to:
77 knots minus one knot for every 100 pounds under 3400
Gordon,
You are such a perfectionist and study every detail about a flight that I’m surprised you did not say…
"77 knots minus one hundredth of a knot for every 1 pound under 3400” [;)]
See you at the fly-in!
Walt
Funny note: I guess that once you learn to land the Cirrus consistently well, there’s no going back. Before flying the Cirrus I was a Cessna driver and had to unlearn the Cessna landing. I was recently flying with a friend in his Cessna Cardinal and I was flying from the right seat. No big deal, I’m actually also checked out in the '22 from the right seat too. He offered to give me the landing and who in his right mind will turn that down. I had only flown Cirri since January, so on approach to Niagara Falls I kept the power in, and kept it in, and was essentially doing what I now do automatically, keep in some power until I’m over the numbers. Well, my friend, who’s a CFI and real knowledgeable guy took the plane from me on short final as I was starting to have a bit of difficulty. His words? “My airplane, you can’t land this thing like a Cirrus.” We laughed but I’d become completely programmed from my time in the '22.
Another thing, during my factory training, the instructor advocated not flaring until you get a bit of ground rush. Again, since I was used to flaring so much higher in the 182, what seemed like ground rush then must seem normal now, because I don’t notice a ground rush, per se, any more. I’ll echo some posts here, though, being on speed is the key to consistent squeakers in the Cirrus, and that consistency is definitely possible. I was taught that Cirrus is looking more for a roll-it-on type of landing and not the full-stall type, and that seems to work well for me.
I’ll also add that I feel it’s probably difficult to consistently land well if you’re flying a steeper approach and flaring at the last moment, like I think someone mentioned here. I actually think that’s a somewhat dangerous approach (pardon the pun) because with those last minute flares, if your timing is off, you’ll arrive rather firmly nosewheel first.
Jeff
Yes that’s what I meant. I edited my earlier post. Thanks for pointing that out.
Gordon
In reply to:
You should hear the stall warning going off as you’re touching down. If you don’t, you’re touching down too fast = too flat IMHO.
I completely agree. In the Uk, with short runways, the key technique we use is stall warner blaring in the flare! Sometimes, when I have loads of runway to play with I like to leave some power on even to touch down, and pretend I’m a 737 coming in, (just not at the same speed) which in the Cirrus, with a long runway, works okay, so long as the power you have left on does not result in high airspeed.
I like and practice both techniques, but whether power is chopped and you bleed speed in the flare and get the horn going, or you fly it in, at the perfect speed and leave power on and control it to touch down on a long runway, the cirrus is easy to land if the speed is right.
For an example of perfect stall warner landings, and the picture you see,from the cockpit, folks can watch Alasdair Arthur’s video of his trip around france thats on my web site. There are 3 or 4 perfect landings in the video at different places. The last few mins of the Video show the approach into Denham, and there you definately want the horn going in the flare!
The video is available here
Enjoy!
Ian
In reply to:
With the landing gear in the normal position the nose attitude required for the tail to touch the ground is way higher than the stall attitude.
It looks like this:
- Mike.
Wayne,
To put things into perspective, the accompanying illustration shows an SR20 and a Cessna 172 to the same scale. Both are drawn in “tail strike attitude,” i. e. at an angle where the main wheels and the tail are both contacting the ground. As you can see, the SR20 must be at a much steeper angle than a 172 to cause a tail strike.
Perhaps the question you should be asking is whether it’s safe to land Cessna 172s! [;)]
Cheers,
Roger
Could some of you who purchsed the tail strike (preventer) skid comment on them?
Have they ever hit it runway?
Do others think this simple but expensive device is necssary?
Like to hear from you.
When I was training for my Private in a Tomahawk, my instructor kept yelling at me that I wasn’t flairing enough (I think I was meant to fly a Cirrus).
He would flair it so much (in anger) that he struck the tail on several landings. The strikes didn’t seem to bother him. (Not his plane). I changed instructors.
Walt
This is a great comparison.
I have never had a tail strike. (I am only a low-time pilot with around 300 landings.) After looking at these photos, much of my concern about a tail strike has been alleviated.
Thanks, thanks, and more thanks to everyone!
The next time I post, I should have a COPA emblem by my name!
In reply to:
When I was training for my Private in a Tomahawk, my instructor kept yelling at me that I wasn’t flairing enough (I think I was meant to fly a Cirrus).
He would flair it so much (in anger) that he struck the tail on several landings. The strikes didn’t seem to bother him. (Not his plane). I changed instructors.
Walt,
I’m sure we’ll wind up enjoying a few cool beers together, on a warm evening sometime soon. When that happens, please remind me to tell you my story of an instructor in a Tomahawk (too long to write out)… not only did I change instructors, but he was forced to change careers! [;)]
- Mike.
In reply to:
I’ll also add that I feel it’s probably difficult to consistently land well if you’re flying a steeper approach and flaring at the last moment, like I think someone mentioned here. I actually think that’s a somewhat dangerous approach (pardon the pun) because with those last minute flares, if your timing is off, you’ll arrive rather firmly nosewheel first.
I was the one who advocated steep approaches with a decisive flare - I didn’t say “at the last moment”. If your flare is mis-timed you risk landing nose first no matter how steep or shallow your approach - the problem a lot of people (including me) seem to have with a very shallow approach is that it’s not easy to judge when to flare - too soon or too much back stick and you balloon, too late and you arrive before you (or the plane) are ready. With a steeper approach you have no doubt about when to flare! The ground rushes up at you (due to the higher vertical speed component) and your reaction is pretty automatic - pull back on the stick. There is plenty of lift left in the wing to arrest the vertical speed, and the plane just plops down on the runway at a relatively low forward (ground) speed.
Having said all that, I agree that if you didn’t positively flare at the right time, the results would not be good. So if you’re not used to landing like that, it would be a good idea to try some gradually steeper approaches and see how you feel about it. Personally I like it. You can also get to practice some slipping for those approaches that are TOO steep.
In reply to:
I feel it’s probably difficult to consistently land well if you’re flying a steeper approach and flaring at the last moment
I have to disagree here. My SR22 is extremely forgiving on steep power-off approaches, which I perform regularly. I fly her at 80 KIAS when heavy, 77KIAS when lighter until over the fence, then I lose a few kts. (easy at my home field where shear on the normal runway is a given due to buildings) and am over the numbers at 75-77KIAS. As my transition instructor kept telling me, “I want to see dirt!” Hold the sight picture until 10 feet off or so then flare holding the plane level a foot or two off. As she sinks gently squeeze the sidestick (add forearm pressure to the door bolster rather than pulling the stick) to hold her off and you’ll be rewarded by the stall horn and the feeling of the mains touching more or less simultaneously. Keep squeezing the side stick until you get full deflection during the rollout to keep the weight on the mains to diminish the nosewheel shimmy tendency.
I transitioned from a C177RG and couldn’t deal with the sight picture for the first few landings. Now, after 225 hours or so I can’t remember what the problem was. In my prior flying I never landed nearly so consistently as I do with the SR22. BTW, the high wing loading makes X-wind landings a snap (another given at my home field) and the '22 slips well for those too-high approaches.
In reply to:
Did you try arguing with the UND guy or didn’t you know better at the time?
Man I wish Cirrus would find a decent company to do their freaking training.
I am afraid, given your attitude going in, you have very little chance of a satisfactory experience.
The UND training was very good, and the insructors are teaching the techniques as Cirrus wants them taught. I agree that 80 is fast and I land much better at 75 over the numbers, but since you already know how to fly the plane better than the Cirrus-approved instructors, I doubt you will learn much.
Roland,
Actually, the POH recommends 80 knots on final for the SR22. I think the strong words in this thread were about flight instructors teaching 80 knots for the SR20. The POH recommends 75 knots for that airplane.
For the SR22, 1.3 times VS0 is 76.7 knots at max gross, so 80 knots is not way too fast – at max gross. As others have pointed out, you can reduce that number for lighter weights.
If I were in your shoes, I would discuss approach speeds with my instructor before starting flight training. If the instructor insisted on using 80 knots, I would use 80 knots. It will be good practice if you ever come in a little fast and have to decide wheter to go around or make the landing.
After you’ve completed all the required airwork, ask your instructor if you can experiment with some different approach speeds.
Remember, after you get home, you can fly the airplane any way you deem it safe. When you are getting training, I believe the time is too precious to waste arguing over a few knots.
-Mike
I, too, moved from a 172 to an SR20, and I find that I feel like I’m literally driving my Cirrus into the pavement. That was definitely a scary feeling at first, but now it’s second nature. I simply hit 80 at the numbers, idling and pulling back. When I’m inches from the asphalt, nose down, I pull back just ever so slightly and, whammo, I grease it 3 times out of four. Sure, I’ve had a couple of go rounds, but if I just keep reminding myself, it’s the “into the ground” that works almost every time.
In reply to:
By the way, what is “UND?” University of North Dakota for training?
Yup, that’s it.
- Mike.
Well, I got the answer to my earlier question, when would one NOT fly a plane to a full stall touchdown?
Today, I had the wonderful privilege of taking B. Burns, a WWII P-51 pilot, up in my Pitts S2C. I didn’t know anyone, much less a man who is nearly eighty years old, could make that plane behave as gracefully as he did. In any event, we were talking about the P-51 after our flight. Well, one does not do full stall landings in a P-51. It’s got no stall break, just drops like a brick once it passes the critical angle of attack. So if you want to preserve the gear and avoid ground loops, you fly it on everytime…maybe holding the tail off six inches or so.
I don’t suppose that applies to the Cirrus. Speaking of which, regarding the approach speeds above, as the Mooney drivers note, the approach speed only matters depending on how much runway you have. The touchdown speed should be about the same in all cases, ie stall…and you shouldn’t see that on the airspeed, cause your eyes SHOULD be out of the cockpit.
In reply to:
I am afraid, given your attitude going in, you have very little chance of a satisfactory experience.
quite possibly, with my attitude I am probably going to find training an unpleasant and frustrating experience if I make an issue out of this. However I’ve read everything comment I can find about the course and almost to a person the posters express the view that the UND course-taught speeds are too fast and many times the view is expressed that this may be a factor in some of the bounce, bounce, bounce, prop strike accidents which put everyone’s insurance up.
I will certainly do everything I can to persuade my instructor to use a better approach speed and teach me the technique and sight picture for that speed. I want to learn it the right way from the start instead of going out and after the course to try to figure it out for myself.
Of course the UND instructors can fly the plane better than I can. It’s my belief that they can teach me better by using the correct speeds. I’ll do what I can to persuade my instructor to help me to learn better.