I know there have been posts on insurance in the past but have not seen any recently. I will be picking up my SR22 late November or early December and got the following quote on insurance from Halton Hall, a broker I have used for several years. Hull insurance for $300,000 valuation is $3,900; liability for $1,000,000 smooth (no sublimits per passenger or per person is $500 for a total of $4,400. An extra $2,000,000 smooth liability is $1,917. This is for a 500 hour IR pilot. This came in after September 11. I am curious what others are finding.
Lou
Lou:
Could you send me the number and agents name at Halton Hall. You pricing and coverage is outstanding when compared to what I am hearing from my AOPA agent and USAIG.
David Bulman
raqa@capital.net
518.793.5545
You mentioned the agencyās name, but what insurance company is writing the policy?
That sounds like a good price for the coverage compared to what my partner and I have found. Coincidentally, I believe US Specialty is the company that told our broker they would not write an SR22 policy with less than 500 hrs. and an instrument ticket. We are working on our instrument ticket now, and want to do the flight instruction in our -22, so we had to shop around to find a āVFRā policy, which we paid a lot more for than you did. Your coverage and cost sounds very reasonable given that you probably have no time in the plane.
FWIW,
Greg
Has anyone looked at how time in type may be affecting rates. We are at a point where some of the early SR20 owners have been getting renewal quotes. If their 2nd - 3rd year quotes are reasonable, it would seem to indicate that the insurance companies are concerned about that first year learning curve. It seems likely that at least one of the SR22 accidents was due in large part to inexperience in landing the plane. If the rates come down after the first year, then high rates during your first 100 - 150 hours in type may be part of the cost of owning a new design. If rates are not coming down after that time, then I agree it is cause for concern.
I have been told that most insurance companies consider SR20 time to be time in type for 22ās. I am at about 100 hours, total time, 15 of which are in a SR20 I have been renting. Am just starting my instrument rating next week in the SR20, and will be flying the plane about 2-3 hours a week outside of the instrument course. By the time my 22 arrives in March, I should be about 200 hours total, over 100 of which will be in a SR20. Hopefully, the insurance companies will consider that enough.
I wouldnāt jump too quick at the opportunity to sign up with USSIC. They gave us a quote of $9390 for $250K property on an SR20, $1M liab, and we both are IFR with over 300 hrs. Apparently, things are changing rapidly. The best quote so far for us is Avemco, which is about half of the above quote.
The agent is using no insurance companies rated less than A. I believe the quote is from the same company that insures my current plane. That is US Specialty Insurance Company issued through HCC Aviation Insurance Group. I need to check after the holiday weekend and will post if it is different.
Lou
If one were to read all these posts (past and present) about insurance as a disinterested third party, it would seem that the pricing of insurance was vague and arbitrary with no rationale. It seems Iāve read of scenarios (ratings and hours) that are almost identical but for widely varing insurance quotes. Why is that? Different areas of the country? Does that matter? There seems to be quite a few of us with over 250 hours and IRās and yet the quotes vary with the weather. This would be one very beneficial area of endeavor for COPA to work on - an insurance program.
Youāre right about the COPA folks needing to jump on this ASAP. These insurance quotes of late are nearly doubling the cost to operate a Cirrus. This could very well put potential buyers over the top of affording the operational expenses of the aircraft. I hope Cirrus is paying attention, but I really havenāt seen any efforts from them except sending folks to a certain insurance broker who has posted to this list, which hasnāt been the solution for some owners. This has got to start having a negative impact on aircraft sales for Cirrus. I hope this gets straightened out sooner rather than later.
I am thinking along the same lines as Bruce ā that insurance quotes are somewhat arbitrary depending on whether the underwriter is asked before or after lunch that day. And, as somebody said, this is definitely going to price some of us out of the market for a new Cirrus. How do these rates compare to Bonanzas, etc., given comparable hull values? I bet theyāre not much higher, even with retract and high costs on replacement parts.
Where you live does matter because there is a company that has been very competitive on Cirrusā that is not licensed in many east coast states.
John JT Helms
jhelms@nationair.com
(This would be one very beneficial area of endeavor for COPA to work on - an insurance program. )
We are, however this is a major project and is being coordinated with our training program. Right now, both initiatives are fairly embryonic, but we have been working closely with insurance companies and brokerages. Officially, as there are some major stumbling blocks ahead, we will not promise anything.
Unofficially, we are looking for some good things to happen in the new year. Please look to the web site and fall newsletter for updates
Marty
Cirrus is paying attention. As I posted before, I would recommend that you all read my article recently published in GANews and InFlight Magazines. (posted here 9-25?)
Changing agents is not going to change your quotes. Assigning a new broker is only going to get those quotes āassignedā to that agent.
AVEMCO (the direct writer like GEICO only for airplanes) may be quoting lower for some of you. Remember that they typically write the Liability sublimit as a per PERSON sublimit (unlike the companies available to agents which us a per PASSENGER sublimit.) AVEMCO in an instance with bodily injury outside the airplane would potentially only cover the first $100,000 of a claim even if you were being sued for, say, $500,000. The companies we agents deal with would cover the entire claim. Also AVEMCO limits a family member of the owner to 25% of the sublimit. How much is your family worth? $25,000 each? (no family sublimits with any of the companies we deal with.)
We are doing more than helping those people Cirrus sends to us. We are communicating with the insurance companies constantly. We are trying to get another insurance company that currently is not covering Cirrus aircraft to join the fray now instead of in January as they had planned. This should help stabilize the market a little.
It would certainly help if Cirrus accidents would decrease in regularity. However, part of what we are also doing is keeping ALL the companies informed of what is going on with ALL the accidents (i.e. Apr, Jun, and Aug accidents were pilot error; Sept accident was maintenance failure; and Oct 1st accident appears to have been a CFIās fault - havenāt seen the NTSB report on this yet). The companies need to know that these accidents (none of them) were airplane related.
What we hope to achieve is stabilization of the rates, then lowering of the rates, eventually a specialized program with preferential rates. This may involve changes in training requirements, or pilot requirements for some companies.
We are working on these issues. It is not going to happen overnight.
John JT Helms
jhelms@nationair.com
1 Like
I believe Wings Aloft is sponsoring an open house for insurance underwriters this month to inform them better about Cirrus aircraft and training programs. If you havenāt already, COPA should liase with Steve Lee about this.
-Curt
Thanks John that was very informative.
I understand the regional variation of rates however Iāve still heard of what appears to me to be arbitrary variations. For example here in Florida should it vary much from the SE Florida area to the Tampa area?
Further I know of one individual who pays the same thing I was quoted yet I have an instrument rating. We are both in S Florida.
You must understand that the rates available now are different from those available even 1 month ago. The rates have been changing so fast that someone binding a policy now may be paying twice what someone half as experienced is currently paying if their policy was bound in March.
Comparing prices recently has been difficult at best. Once a company quotes something (unless they specifically retract a quote which they donāt often do) they will bind it at that rate they have quoted. There rates may change and they may be quoting things higher, yet still bind coverages lower because they donāt like to retract quotes (makes them look wishy washy).
No, rates should not be different for that small a difference in location.
John JT Helms
jhelms@nationair.com
JT, first lets tell these people the real facts of insurance. Insurance is designed to take from many to pay for the losses of a few. Cirrus to date does not qualify for the first part as they do not have a large number of aircraft. Second there have been 5 Cirrus accidents to date, two directly related to Wings Aloft Training, which should show on them, One unknown accident involving CFIT, another with improper maintenance and finally one unknown engine failure. The end result is that the few companies that have insured these aircraft have lost tremendous amounts of money. You do the math, five totals for $200,000 each, equals $1,000,000. I donāt think there has been $1,000,000 in revenue combined for all Cirrus aircraft when all the companies are put together.
Currently there are 7 insurance companies that an agent can contact, and then ther is Avemco. Several companies have stopped writing the Cirrus, which is attributal to two factors. 1) Not using appropriate rates and deductibles for this class of aircraft and 2) not having the factory provide support and understanding for the aircraft. If the underwriters responsible for writing these aircraft have complete knowledge and understanding of the aircraft, systems and problems then you would see a different approach to pricing.
Finally the complaints about inconsistent pricing even among the same company indicates that we have various idealologys about this aircraft, its performance, insurability and appropriate repair estimates for damaged aircraft. This is still a guessing game and if there are continued losses of Cirrus aircraft I would suspect that the underwriting community will withdraw from not only the Cirrus by the Lanciar Columbia as well.
With respect to an insurance program, the current underwriting companies understand that programs do not work unless you can get one company to take every Cirrus owner and provide insurance to that customer. Like shoes, everyone has a different size and shape and one insurance company does not, nor will they take this as an acceptable position in providing insurance for this aircraft.
Best of luck in solving this dilema, unless there are some proactive pilots and CFIās to take a responsible position in providing the awareness and training for this aircraft, you will watch as the insurance industry responds with increased pricing, difficult policy language and restrictions to the qualifications that they will find acceptable for this class of aircraft.
Raptor- ATP, CFII-MEI
I know that you did not mean to imply that I was not telling people the truth (email me and I will gladly list for you all of the reasons why I feel I am deserving of that trust not the least of which being that I was a Commissioned regular Army Officer and Helicopter Pilot) I figured that most people knew how insurance works in general.
Cirrus doesnāt have to āqualifyā for anything. Usually on a new aircraft design there is a period where no insurance companies provide coverage and then very slowly start. They are slow because of what you said, there are very few aircraft of that type to provide premiums to cover the losses that do occur. However, it is a bet that companies are willing to take and usually as the numbers of that model increase more companies start covering them creating competition and driving down the rate of insurance.
You are pretty close on the number of companies that are competitive with light aircraft. However, there is only one company (Phoenix) that has stopped covering Cirrus aircraft altogether. You are wrong about their reasoning, but I am not at liberty to speak for them as to why they stopped. Please donāt bother to ask as I promised them that I would not disseminate their list of reasons. Suffice it to say that they are not an insurance company that likes composite aircraft in the first place and they made a concious decision.
The inconsistency in pricing that has been reported is attributable to 3 things: 1) one insurance company is only available (basically) west of the MS river and they have been very reasonable on price and have not yet covered a total loss on a Cirrus aircraft. 2) many of the insurance companies have been reacting in a āknee jerkā fashion and their rates have been changing extremely fast. People have been reporting quotes which have or are about to be invalid (quotes are only good for a certain time period to allow the company to change rates periodically if they want to) and 3) many companies (including Phoenix) have been renewing expiring policies as is with no increase. Why I do not know other than they are extremely noble. and
For a program to be effective, you are correct, they need to cover many aircraft (not all, but many.) The marketplace today is ready for a program. None of the companies today would do a preferred rate for Cirrus aircraft. Our goal today is to get as many companies as possible to cover these models of aircraft and to steady and then reduce the rates. And in a year or so, we do hope things have steadied enough that a true program can be initiated with one or maybe two companies.
John JT Helms
jhelms@nationair.com