I have been finalising the specification for my SR22 (to be delivered end April). Being in Europe, I requested ADF, DME, and also 2nd altimeter but Cirrus say ‘they do not support them’.
How have other European users got around this problem? If Cirrus wont’ install them then do we get them put in before the plane is ferried over (and if so, who by?), or does it get done in Europe (if so, who does it)? What do I do?
What do you need that for? So far, the aircraft can only be n-registered, and in this case you don’t need that old, heavy, inflexible stuff to go IFR. We are flying IFR in Europe happily without that stuff.
Sure, someday you might be able to register it in your home country, but even then, I would keep the n-registration, it makes life just so much easier. Also, I don’t know where you want to put all that in your panel. The SR2x panel is obviously not designed to hold the old-fashioned eight-item radio stack of past times. I think in the modern Cirrus panel an ADF would look awfully out of place.
Philipp Tiemann
When I signed my contract in December 1999, I selected the “C “ configuration and the optional pricelist item ADF,DME, and 2e Altimeter for $15500,=.
The reason is that I hold a JAA CPL/IR which to my knowledge is not convertible to a US CPL/IR license like the PPL and therefore I would need to go through new FAA examination etc. to fly the N registered SR20 IFR.
When I last checked with General Enterprises, they re-confirmed that Cirrus was still committed to JAA certification and that this was most likely completed in 2002.
It seems obvious to me that eventually GPS will prevail over the old stuff in Europe too, however I donÂ’t think that this will happen before the new European Galileo GPS system is functioning and that is planned for the end of this decade.
Referring to other postings on AI reliability it is a shame that we have to spend so much money on old equipment to meet the law, while there is no mandatory requirement for a stand-by horizon, TCAS or GPWS. ( I donÂ’t think IÂ’ll fly IFR without a st-by AI after the numerous in flight failures reported on this forum, just to find the panel space.)
Hein
PhilT,
You are mostly right. But stanby instruments, like maybe an attitude indicator would make most folks feel safer. (Forget the altimeter. You can use the Garmin’s readout in an emergency).
I don’t get this. Why there isn’t any space in the cirrus panel for extra avionics? In Europe you got to have 2nd altimeter, adf and dme to use the plane´s full ifr potential. It´s stupid, I know, but its also the law.
In future, the rules might change for allowing vor/gps-only ifr, but so far they don’t. Keeping plane in n-register is as popular as keeping u.s. planes in, say, french register. Not an option.
So: should I buy cirrus and wait for 10+ years for rules to change or,
should I buy a lancair and stuff everything that is needed to its huge panel and go for ifr?
I think the answer is clear: lancair wins hands down. Sorry cirrus, I really like your plane.
eupilot
Well, having dual vacuum, I don’t insist on that. Attitude indicators themselves don’t suddenly “fail” very often, do they? I think you can put a 2nd Gyro, Altimeter, and Attitude into those classic IFR platforms like the Bonanza or 210 or so, where there is a lot of panel space and payload, but not in an SR20 (which is still a serious IFR platform though, just one size smaller).
Manolis: I agree that a second attitude indicator is a good idea. I don’t think personally that the iPAQ (just reviewed in the February 2002 Aviation Consumer) is the solution. My idea is that when the Garmin 330 Mode S transponder comes out (and all indications are that Cirrus is going to offer the Garmin 330 as an option or as an exchange for the Garmin 327 at Cirrus Service Centers) that the outside air temperature function of the existing Davtron will be available on the Garmin transponder. Since there is already a voltmeter on the right panel, all that the Davtron would then be providing that was not duplicated elsewhere would be the clock. With a clock (possibly mounted at an angle on the top of the bolster next to the switch panel) it is my hope that I could get FAA approval to replace the Davtron with a Goodrich AIM series 2 1/4" attitude indicator. These are available at a number of sources rebuilt and would serve nicely as a backup attitude indicator. Piper uses this same instrument in the Meridian with a back up battery so that the AIM instrument is always available even if both the primary and emergency bus fail. Piper mounts theirs with an “on/off/test” switch. It would then be part of the checklist and would also be operated in actual IFR conditions.
I think this can be fairly described as Macintosh vs PC. Cirrus has a closed interface for the panel to standardize the use and support of their planes. It has great advantages, but you’ve hit on the disadvantage.
On the other hand, I expect since Cirrus is building an entire airplane for the European market (SR-21 turbodiesel) they probably are preparing a panel for that plane that will be more useful in Europe.
-Curt
Au contrere, The (JAA) law makes the FAA / N-register very popular in Europe, like all Cirri flying around, because, except for the UK with their national IMC rating, only professional pilots are able in Europe not to loose their instrument rating !
And the European Instrument rules make flying (FM-immunisation, digital transponder) also very expensive for the common man. They just don’t want people to fly !
But since you only use EUPILOT as a name and just registered, you just might be trying to sell Lancairs.
Who needs a DME when you have GPS ?
Jaap
The Netherlands
Jaap, I’ve flown in France, Germany, Netherlands, Denmark, Norway and Finland. I have never seen an n-registered plane. Ever. So IMO it can’t be “very” popular.
About Lancairs: No, I’m not selling them. However, I would be willing to buy one if I only had the money 
AFAIK (I’m not IFR pilot) I can use GPS only when flying RNAV approach, since GPS is certified as a RNAV unit. When flying NDB or DME approach I need THAT equipment. Maybe we’ll get overlays at some point, I really don’t know. I should add that most airfields in Europe do not have an ILS, so NDB etc. are still only way to get to some places.
Happy flying,
eupilot
Well, since ‘we’ in Europe will spend about 10^10 Euro for a similar system as GPS is, VOR/NDB’s will probably also disappear in the future.
For now you could loose the Gramin 250XL on the A model and get a King 62 DME and a UPS Apollo nav/com next to it on a 337. But you can of course ask General Enterprises (www.general-enterprises.com) in Groningen, The Netherlands, the European Agent. They sold about 25% of all Cirri, and those will all fly on the N-register.
If you want to have your plane on the N-register there are lots of Trust corporations (and they do have lots of clients) that can help you.
Jaap
Under FAR part 61.77 you just would have to do the instrument knowledge test to convert your ICAO licence to a FAA PPL/IR. Therafter you could do the CPL knowledge test and practical exam.
Besides, the JAA (former RLD ? in Hoofddorp) won’t accept the CAPS of the Cirrus for spin recovery, so it may take a while before you can do a (costly) conversion of your cirrus to the Dutch registry.
So doing the knowledgetest can save you $ 15,000.-
Jaap
Hein, you can get an FAA PPL on the basis of your JAA CPL - to get the instrument rating on the PPL you need only sit a written test (mostly on FAA IFR regs) which you can do in Europe (it’s a computerized test and you get the result immediately - I passed it with just a few hours study of the FARs and AIM - see www.lasergrade.com). Once you have the test result, you will have to visit an FAA office - in Europe they are in Brussels, Frankfurt and London. They will issue an FAA Airman’s Certificate on the spot, private only, but otherwise with the same ratings as your JAA licence. See FAR 61.75.
I’m presuming you will only be using the plane for private purposes anyway.
Also, an N-registered aircraft may be flown outside the USA on a licence issued by the country within which it is being flown (FAR 61.3 (a)) - but I presume that in this context “country” would mean specifically that, not the whole of the JAA area.
Clyde and Jaap, thanks for the info. How about flying a NDB or VOR/DME approach in Europe with only GPS and VOR on board? I donÂ’t think it is legal to fly these IFR procedures with the N registered SR20. If you have a solution for this I have saved the money and will have the stand-by AI and probably storm scope instead. Thanks for the suggestion how to obtain the PPL/IR for which I will go anyway. Hein
Within the US you can fly VOR/DME approaches using GPS in lieu of DME. NDB approaches can be flown with GPS if published as an overlay. But that authorization applies only within US airspace.