A hardware engineer, a systems analyst, and a programmer are in a car going down a winding road on a steep hill. Suddenly the car’s brakes fail. After a harrowing ride, with many close calls, they manage to get the car stopped at the bottom of the hill.
The hardware engineer says, “We have to take the whole brake system apart to find out what’s wrong with it.” The systems analayst says, “No, let’s first think about failure modes and what could have caused the brakes to fail.” The programmer says, “Let’s go to the top of the hill and try it again.”
Nobody with an ounce of common sense would allow multiple autopilots to be sacrificed in the manner you did.
The following quote was made by you when Steve Demy said you should never allow a 3rd replacement of any component.
"That would usually be sound advice, but the experience of at least some people with, e.g. the Century hsi is that after they get enough replacements, they finally get one that works. And the faults usually tend to be different. The hsi failures seem to suggest either bad quality control at the factory, or, as Century has suggested, mishandling during shipping (except that I would call that inadequate packaging.)
On vacuum pumps, you are probably right, but nobody has yet been able to find a cause for the high failure rate of the Airborne vacuum pumps on the IO-360ES, in spite of some exhaustive testing."
Apparently your “ounce of common” sense is dependant on what you think will put Cirrus in the best light.
Now that I am about to sell the plane and leave this group
When! When! Please, go! Soon is not soon enough!!
In reply to:
I was going to stop this exercise, but ClydeÂ’s last post makes it necessary to continue. For the benefit of Clyde and anyone else who canÂ’t read, canÂ’t count, or just canÂ’t be bothered with the facts
Art, it’s amazing that it never seems to sink in that no one will read your posts and consider them at face value. Your posts are, and have been, tainted by your demeanor and attitudes and refusal of any personal responsibility. It’s too bad, because ther might have been reason, at one time, for some debate, but nothing you say now has any gravitas. Don’t mean nuthin’. Little digs like in your last statement only perpetuate the negativity inherent in your posts, and the negative light through which people regard you.
It’s been fun, Art, but that’s it for me. In my book, you’re done. And I’ll not comment further. Pity the next forum group you enter.
Nobody with an ounce of common sense would allow multiple autopilots to be sacrificed in the manner you did.
To Which Art replied:
In reply to:
I bought a new plane from Cirrus. I had all maintenance performed at Cirrus designated service centers. I am not a mechanic and I don’t pretend to be. Nor do I view my roll as the prime contractor trying to coordinate efforts of the assembler, the component manufactures, and the service centers. Your post would suggest what I have claimed all along, that Cirrus is not doing their job since they are the ones who cost STEC a lot of money. I am surprised STEC hasn’t demanded reimbursement from Cirrus.
Art: YOU are the owner. YOU are the PILOT. It is YOUR butt in the airplane and on the line! You need to take some responsibility and stop assuming that everyone in the world is at fault or in conspiracy with Cirrus and that Cirrus is solely responsible for every problem you have encountered. If you don’t want to accept some responsibility, you need to at least be concerned about self-preservation.
(Marty W.: I 100% agree with your comments on how to treat trolls and other irresponsible posters, but in this case, I think there is someting to be learned. Bill, Clyde and others have posted some very good information about how to work with you Service Centers and what to expect from them. Art is a first time owner. I truly believe that in large part, some of his problems, or at least the duration of his problems, have been because he did not know what to expect or how to handle them. True, he would have been better advised to take ownership of the problem and seek a holistic correction, but Art, doesn’t seem the type to either seek advice or to follow it. I hope that other, less experienced owners can learn from this and set their expectations accordingly. edited to add last parenthetical.)
You, Art, think the SCs are some sort of extension or franchise of Cirrus Design! Thats NOT true!
Since Cirrus tells me the only way they will pay for warranty work is if I take it to a “Cirrus Service Center”. They provide me with the list of those centers. I assumed that Cirrus would take some interest in assuring that their planes were properly fixed by the “Cirrus Service Centers” they approved. However based upon performance, you are apparently right. Cirrus’ only obligation seems to be footing the bills until the warranty runs out, but they don’t care whether the problems with the plane are actually fixed.
Art is a first time owner. I truly believe that in large part, some of his problems, or at least the duration of his problems, have been because he did not know what to expect or how to handle them.
For what it is worth this is the break down of the autopilot failures:
3 caused by roll trim motor
1 bad repair by Lancaster Avionics
1 developed erratic behavior in service (cause unknown)
1 bad repair by STEC
I summarized my problems and while I agree I have a lemon, after reading posts on this site, I don’t think it is that unusual.
While 7 autopilots is a high number, someone else had 7 vacuum pumps, and another 5 HSI’s, so high repetitive component failures in a Cirrus are not rare.
I had a total of 18 SB’s, but so did everybody else whose plane was built around the same time.
I had 4 alternators. A high number but others have come close.
As far as taking responsibility, whenever something is wrong or an SB is issued I take the plane to the “Cirrus Service Center”. You perhaps have a better idea?
I 100% agree with your comments on how to treat trolls and other irresponsible posters, but in this case, I think there is something to be learned. Bill, Clyde and others have posted some very good information about how to work with you Service Centers
[I promised myself I wouldn’t get into this debate again, but…]
A troll is someone with no vested interest who posts only to stir up trouble. I might fit that description (though as a former position holder and early member of this forum I think I have at least some standing) but Art certainly does not. He’s a fellow owner, for crying out loud. This is yet another example of someone who criticizes Cirrus being branded a heretic (oops, I mean “troll”) by the faithful of the Church of Cirrus.
It is a different experience, but not all that different.
Agreed. The interior feels like a Lexus or equivalent. It would be nice if the doors closed with the same solidity as the Lexus, or if you could just turn a key to start it, etc. Maybe the G2 will solve the door issue and FADEC and/or diesel will eventually solve the engine management complexity issues.
I think the K Brothers are doing a fanastic job, within the limits imposed by the FAA, liability concerns and the need to use others to supply major components. Most of Art’s problems don’t seem to be airframe related, and the ones that have been (lost tire valve covers? c’mon!) are not all that major. The K bothers have to shop around and take the alleged best that Continental, Hartzell, Garmin, S-Tec, Avidyne et. al. can offer. I think they’ve made good choices, but as we’ve seen, even “state-of-the-art” components can leave a lot to be desired in the reliability department.
Again, I’m enjoying this. And it’s not like bandwidth is finite!
I agree that Art may be too hands-off when it comes to maintaining his plane.
I appreciate your support, but you have fallen into the trap of believing what Marty and some others have said. I have been to the Service Center 25+ times in 2 years. On only 3 occasions did I leave the plane. The rest of the time I spent the day with the A&P. I watched him work, asked about what he was doing, asked if other planes in the Cirrus fleet had similar problems, and asked if planes from other manufactures made this or that task as difficult as on a Cirrus. Sometimes I actually helped. Nothing major, but at times when he would have had to call another A&P I would pitch in (helping to hold cowlings while they were removed or installed, holding panels so he could put in the screws, slowing moving the plane, or turning the prop while he checked things, and running the engine while he looked for leaks). Sometimes I just tagged along and watched while he cut open the oil filters and looked for particles or was called over to help someone else work on another plane. I suspect I have spent far more time with my A&P than most people on this site.
Marty decided that to make a point he needed me to have a poor relationship with my service center, so it made it up. I would accuse him of lying except that would imply he knew the truth. He just said what he though his argument required and by now he probably even believes it.
Steve, given your credentials and the length of time you’ve been a member of this site, I’m assuming your post is serious. I note however that as a non-COPA member you haven’t followed the Art saga on the members forum.
In reply to:
n any sizable population of customers there will be some who have problems and become dissatisfied.
This is true, and it’s important to hear from those customers. I run a business that sells highly technical products to thousands of customers, and amongst those are a very few who will never be satisfied. They are the kind of customer where, after you have exhausted all attempts to resolve their problems, it becomes clear the best course is to offer them a full refund and hope you never hear from them again. As I said, they are rare - in 20 years of business I’ve dealt with only a handful. Sadly, I think Art is one of those. It’s a shame because he’s clearly not stupid and I think if he could get out of his negative mindset he would be quite a nice guy.
A troll is someone with no vested interest who posts only to stir up trouble. I might fit that description … but Art certainly does not. He’s a fellow owner, for crying out loud. This is yet another example of someone who criticizes Cirrus being branded a heretic (oops, I mean “troll”) by the faithful of the Church of Cirrus
Joe I respect your opinions, and will certainly not debate the definitions of the word “Troll.” But I don’t think that is the point. I think the word troll is used in a broader context of one who either posts negatively for their own entertainment or has an axe to grind. I certainly wonder why anyone would waste their time reading and posting on a bulletin board when their intention is to insult the members or their common interest?
It’s a shame because he’s clearly not stupid and I think if he could get out of his negative mindset he would be quite a nice guy.
Lets see if I have this straight. I am not a nice guy because I express negative opinions of Cirrus, but it is OK for other members of this site to create a stereotype of lawyers and proceed to insult them.
I certainly wonder why anyone would waste their time reading and posting on a bulletin board when their intention is to insult the members or their common interest?
There are people on this board who have not yet committed to Cirrus. They have a right to hear both sides of the story.
I certainly wonder why anyone would waste their time reading and posting on a bulletin board when their intention is to insult the members or their common interest?
I think this is the crux of the issue: that many here take criticism as insult. If someone were to criticize my plane (a TB20) I might disagree, but I certainly wouldn’t feel insulted.