Cirrus Problems

One final concern. I keep being told by Cirrus that it is about to get a 100 lb increase in the SR20 useful load (i.e., gross weight). I’ve been told this for over six months, and as far as I know, it hasn’t happened.

At first I was told end of 2000. Then early 2001. Now mid-2001. Once again, it creates a credibility problem.

Again, I’m not trying to bash Cirrus. I just want straight answers that I can rely upon.

What’s that straight scoop?

Your post does not explain what Cirrus told you regarding “why” the company was not getting the gross weight increase.

I would bet that Cirrus wants the weight increase expeditiously for marketing, customer relations, and to eliminate the carping it receives.

If there is a credibility problem, I believe the answer can be discovered at your “friendly” FAA. Did you ever wonder why it took so long for Cirrus to receive the TC and PC. Again, my friend, the answer lies with the FAA.

I know your frustration because I, like many other early buyers, had to wait and endure three plus years of ups and downs before Cirrus was able to deliver a certified airplane.

It was not easy, but the end result is more than satisfactory. Each time I fly, I know the past stress and frustration is overwhelmed by the joy of flight in my Cirrus SR20.

BK

– Jim

At first I was told end of 2000. Then early 2001. Now mid-2001. Once again, it creates a credibility problem.

Again, I’m not trying to bash Cirrus. I just want straight answers that I can rely upon.

As with the other things you pointed out, I feel this too is a question of a new company hoping things will work out perfectly, and it taking longer. Suffice to say it will be soon. I’ve been hearing May for quite some time now.

If you were to get in line today, by the time you received your plane, assuming you don’t find a way to skip ahead, you may enjoy the benefits of things like FADEC…etc. Or they may not be available even by then.

But, to be very plain about this. For around 200K there is no NEW plane, and only a few used ones, that come close to the day-in day-out performance of the Cirrus. Period. End-of-story.

If you’re worried about them going belly-up, and you really believe someone would buy the company and not at least refunfd deposits, which I highly hihgly doubt, then buy a USED CIRRUS. There are a few out there, especially as other upgrade to the 22.

or join ourplane or another time-share and then you’ll really have no worries ever. Except of course the flying part. Which last time I checked was risky and looked like it would stay that way.

Cheers,

Dean

Nevertheless, I opted to go in another direction, with an aircraft with comparable performance at the top end, and substantially better performance at the slow end of the performance envelope. A major element of my decision to buy a different product was the timing of the purchase transaction (1 year vs 2-3 years), comparable costs for essentially comparable performance (and in certain respects better performance), and comparable ethics and integrity on the part of the purveyor of the aircraft I decided to buy, which is a highly modified version of an old standby design.

Speaking as a restless position holder I would be interested in hearing what you decided on. If you don’t to post the answer for everybody, I would appreciate an email.

Thank you.

Pete –

What did you end up buying?

I’m also looking at a new DA40-180 (Diamond), which is around the same price as a SR20 but with slightly lower top speed. It just received IFR certification, and I will be test flying it in about two weeks.

Thanks again to everyone for you input. Hope I didn’t rattle too many cages!

– Jim

I’m also looking at a new DA40-180 (Diamond), which is around the same price as a SR20 but with slightly lower top speed. It just received IFR certification, and I will be test flying it in about two weeks.

Jim,

I test flew the DA40-180 at Appleton, WI during Airventure 2000 (Oshkosh). I found it to be fun and responsive, and it felt safe. It was a little strange moving the rudder pedals toward the seat, instead of the other way around. I liked having a stick instead of a yoke. Like the SR20, it steers with differential braking and a castoring nosewheel. The view outside was terrific.

It was, however, a relatively austere airplane when compared with the SR20; much more conventional in almost every way. I found myself asking “Is it worth the extra $$$ to have the NICER airplane?” - because in my mind (then and now), the SR20 is the NICER choice, but it is (or was, then) more expensive.

You already know which way I went; but the DA40 is not shabby either.

Thanks again to everyone for you input. Hope I didn’t rattle too many cages!

I don’t think you rattled cages. In some ways, what you did was like going to France and asking people at random “I’d like to buy a Renault, but maybe a Ford would suit me better. What do you think?” – in other words, by definition, most of us on this Forum have an obvious bias (although I think that we try our best to be objective).

  • Mike.

I’m also looking at a new DA40-180 (Diamond), which is around the same price as a SR20 but with slightly lower top speed. It just received IFR certification, and I will be test flying it in about two weeks.

I went to Sun N Fun with the idea of convincing my partner to switch from the SR20 to the DA40. Unfortunately I hurt my back trying to get in and out of the DA40. It is a very high step over with no hand holds and requires you to support yourself at an awarkward angle to avoid stepping on the seats. Needless to say my partner was not convinced.

I’ve been reading posts on this forum for at least six months as I considered buying a SR20.

In January, I was about to pay the $20k deposit, and was given all sorts of rosey assurances by the Cirrus sales rep. But I then started hearing rumors about financial difficulties at Cirrus, so I held off. Shortly thereafter, Cirrus announced its layoffs and need for funding.

I had to then think hard about whether to go forward with signing the contract and paying the deposit, which would have made me an unsecured creditor to Cirrus. I was about to finally take the plung, but then learned that Cirrus was going back on its promised delivery dates for the SR20s and was stopping production in favor of the SR22.

Bottom line: It seems to me that Cirrus either is unable to keep its promises, or lacks the integrety to do so. In talking to others who were seriously considering purchasing a Cirrus, they too have backed off and are looking at alternatives.

Please don’t flame me – I am not anti-Cirrus. However, whether due to inability or due to lack of integrity on the part of Cirrus, the simple fact is that I would be a fool to give $20K to Cirrus under these circumstances. Even though I believe Cirrus will survive financially, I am unable to trust the company to keep faith with its customers. After all, it hasn’t kept faith with current SR20 position holders and it keeps pushing back production and projected delivery dates.

I think Cirrus has hurt itself more than it realizes. Also, the persistent reports of transponder and ARNAV problems, with no clear indication by Cirrus of any plans to address those problems, also gives me great hesitation about Cirrus as a company.

At this point, I looking elsewhere but want to be convinced that I can depend on Cirrus.

Jim,

The problem with looking at other planes is, what are you going to look at? 40+ year old designs, with less performance, less technology, less quality, all offered at only twice the price!

If you are not convinced after flying the plane, look at the reality of the business situation. Cirrus has a back log of 700-800 planes. In their first year they became the #3 producer of piston aircraft, for good reason. Their biggest asset is their certified design. In the unlikey (but possible) scenario that Cirrus falters, the realistic outcome is that the company, the certified design, and the huge customer order base, will be picked up by another company. Based on this, sending in a deposit for the plane is probably not as risky as you think. If Cirrus failed, how many other manufactures would be lining up, mouths watering, for a new certified design and a huge customer order base? Plus, looking at the current resale market for used Cirrus planes, the contract resale market, and the probable (and much needed for Cirrus) price increases between now and the time you would get your plane, you actually stand a good chance of your deposit increasing in value over time. (Can’t always say that about other investments.)

From my experience, I can tell you my Cirrus rep has quickly answered every question I have posed. Within 2 weeks of my first contact with Cirrus, an SR22 was here in Syracuse for a demo flight. Although my rep always takes the company line, the response time is almost instantaneous and always honest. From what I’ve heard from the fortunate people that aleady have their planes, any problems have been swiftly handled by the company.

Cirrus is a new company. From the outside looking in, it seems they underpriced their product (hence the huge demand.) Cash flow is apparantly a problem, but integrity and customer service is not. They may not be the best managed company in the world right now, its called growing pains. They will get better.

At some point there will likely be continued price increases. The SR20 has already been increased twice in the last year. Get you deposit in now before the next one. What are your other options? Spend $400k on a plane designed with 1950’s technology?

Jeff SR22 #228

Institutional funding was voted through…

Financial situation looking good.

Jim,

Guess it’s time to get in line to sound off on what it’s like to actually own an SR20. I—and every other owner I’ve talked to—freakin’ love our planes and the way we’ve been treated by the company. I waited nearly 5 years to get my plane—I gave them my money when there was one prototype. There is no other airplane for double the money. Buy a used one and avoid the deposit and wait.

Chris

Jim… I forgot to mention that one VERY important item which Chris remembered:
IT’S A JOY TO FLY!

  • Mike.

I’ve been reading posts on this forum for at least six months as I considered buying a SR20.

In January, I was about to pay the $20k deposit, and was given all sorts of rosey assurances by the Cirrus sales rep. But I then started hearing rumors about financial difficulties at Cirrus, so I held off. Shortly thereafter, Cirrus announced its layoffs and need for funding.

I had to then think hard about whether to go forward with signing the contract and paying the deposit, which would have made me an unsecured creditor to Cirrus. I was about to finally take the plung, but then learned that Cirrus was going back on its promised delivery dates for the SR20s and was stopping production in favor of the SR22.

Bottom line: It seems to me that Cirrus either is unable to keep its promises, or lacks the integrety to do so. In talking to others who were seriously considering purchasing a Cirrus, they too have backed off and are looking at alternatives.

Please don’t flame me – I am not anti-Cirrus. However, whether due to inability or due to lack of integrity on the part of Cirrus, the simple fact is that I would be a fool to give $20K to Cirrus under these circumstances. Even though I believe Cirrus will survive financially, I am unable to trust the company to keep faith with its customers. After all, it hasn’t kept faith with current SR20 position holders and it keeps pushing back production and projected delivery dates.

I think Cirrus has hurt itself more than it realizes. Also, the persistent reports of transponder and ARNAV problems, with no clear indication by Cirrus of any plans to address those problems, also gives me great hesitation about Cirrus as a company.

At this point, I looking elsewhere but want to be convinced that I can depend on Cirrus.

Yea, I had reservations three years ago about putting down $15,000 on an uncertified $159,000 airplane. Looking at the cup half full turned out to be a good decision. I go to Duluth today to pick up my airplane.

I take exception with your comments about the company’s integrity. I have found them to be honest and forthright in all my communications with them. I believe that you are misunderstanding the putting off of the SR20 position holders. They are making room for accommodating the early SR20 holders that upgraded to a 22.

I genuinely think that, with the benefit of much exposure to the company, that they may not be perfect, but they’re very good. Everyone I know who has picked up their plane has had a similar perspective.

IDEFINETLY AGR EE WITH ANDY ON THIS STATEMENT A LOT OF US GUYS GETTING OUR 22S NOW PUT MONEY DOWN ON THIS PLANE BEFORE THEY WERE EVEN CERTIFIED.

At this point, I looking elsewhere but want to be convinced that I can depend on Cirrus.

Speaking as a longtime depositor, first SR20 and now SR22, I can say that to my knowledge I have never once been treated with anything but honesty, consideration, politeness, and respect by anyone at CD. I also know several owners and they speak very highly of their post-purchase interactions with Cirrus.

I also have spent my career in a small company, starting as one of the first nine employees, seeing it through an acquisition by a larger firm, and participating in its subsequent growth as a largely independent subsidiary. Demands routinely exceed capacities. It is usually very difficult or even impossible to hire exactly the kind of experience and expertise you need, consequently much of the experience needed to “invent the company” is homegrown in real time. There are always compromises in using limited available funding to accomplish required objectives; there is more improvisation involved on a regular basis than most outsiders can imagine. It is a continually difficult process to “keep one’s eye on the ball” and be able to decide “what is the very most important thing we should be doing with our resources right now so that we’ll be a successful company in 6/12/24 months?”

Sometimes human factors present obstacles too: I’ve seen the costs of poor relationships between key individuals, a disgruntled employee or two, or the reluctance of founders with their entreprenurial spirit to give up more than a certain amount of control of the company even when it might serve the long term interests of both the firm and its customers.

I am confident Cirrus will survive and believe it will eventually be a major player in GA manufacturing. Even if it doesn’t, its unique products and long list of orders have already demonstrated that there is considerable value in the company, its designs, and people. It would surely be acquired; I think the “acquirers” would be really stupid to generate a huge amount of ill will from the get-go by refusing to honor contracts or deposits. So I myself do not believe that I have made a big gamble with my $45K (as of the present) investment.

However, we all have our own degree of risk tolerance. It may be that yours dictates that you should fly another type of airplane for a while until Cirrus is more established and secure. Nothing wrong with that–Cirrus needs customers for their 2000th and 3000th airplanes just as much as they need the very next signed contract this week. Believe me, as one who has flown an SR20 for 12-13 hr courtesy of Walt, they’ll get to you sooner or later!

Well said, Kevin.

Jeff

SR22 #228

Hear, Hear! Outstanding Post!

Pete

At this point, I looking elsewhere but want to be convinced that I can depend on Cirrus.

Speaking as a longtime depositor, first SR20 and now SR22, I can say that to my knowledge I have never once been treated with anything but honesty, consideration, politeness, and respect by anyone at CD. I also know several owners and they speak very highly of their post-purchase interactions with Cirrus.

I also have spent my career in a small company, starting as one of the first nine employees, seeing it through an acquisition by a larger firm, and participating in its subsequent growth as a largely independent subsidiary. Demands routinely exceed capacities. It is usually very difficult or even impossible to hire exactly the kind of experience and expertise you need, consequently much of the experience needed to “invent the company” is homegrown in real time. There are always compromises in using limited available funding to accomplish required objectives; there is more improvisation involved on a regular basis than most outsiders can imagine. It is a continually difficult process to “keep one’s eye on the ball” and be able to decide “what is the very most important thing we should be doing with our resources right now so that we’ll be a successful company in 6/12/24 months?”

Sometimes human factors present obstacles too: I’ve seen the costs of poor relationships between key individuals, a disgruntled employee or two, or the reluctance of founders with their entreprenurial spirit to give up more than a certain amount of control of the company even when it might serve the long term interests of both the firm and its customers.

I am confident Cirrus will survive and believe it will eventually be a major player in GA manufacturing. Even if it doesn’t, its unique products and long list of orders have already demonstrated that there is considerable value in the company, its designs, and people. It would surely be acquired; I think the “acquirers” would be really stupid to generate a huge amount of ill will from the get-go by refusing to honor contracts or deposits. So I myself do not believe that I have made a big gamble with my $45K (as of the present) investment.

However, we all have our own degree of risk tolerance. It may be that yours dictates that you should fly another type of airplane for a while until Cirrus is more established and secure. Nothing wrong with that–Cirrus needs customers for their 2000th and 3000th airplanes just as much as they need the very next signed contract this week. Believe me, as one who has flown an SR20 for 12-13 hr courtesy of Walt, they’ll get to you sooner or later!