Annual Upkeep

In reply to:


Bob’s view on LLC’s is exactly what I have been told in CA


I cannot comment on your view or Bob’s view. I don’t know what you do or did for a living and I therefore don’t know the extent of your legal training. I also cannot comment on CA law, I am not licenced there although barring minor deviation, most corporate law has common conceptual threads based upon model codes with some differences.

In reply to:


If the main purpose of the LLC is liability protection, rather than business operations, you have very thin protection, if any. This is also true of LLC’s and incorporation in general.


Is that legal advise? Oh, someone told you so? Well, all doctors are rich, all small planes crash, and none of these statements are accurate. They are sweeping generalizations.
In fact, one of the principal purposes of corporations and LLC’s is to isolate an owner from liablity. If you get blamed, it is most likely because of “your flying”. Not because of the entity in which the aircraft is held.
While it is true that my corporation will not protect me from my negligence, it is “my” negligence, not that of my corp. Thus my partners do not share the liability of my error; only me and the corp.

In reply to:


The legislature created these entities to aid


There is no such thing as “the legislature” as a general organization.
Each state creates its own law as to corporate entities. Your statement is another sweeping generalization. A competant attorney with experience in corporate law will structure your entity properly such that it will generally accomplish your goals.
I pierce corporation for a living and it’s not because the corporations, as a concept, are defective. Most often, it’s because most corp officers fail to maintain and respect the isolation between their corp and themselves.

In reply to:


If they really worked why would we need liability insurance?


Truth is, you don’t need liability insurance. The same issues that would be used to pierce a corp, would likely be used by your insurance company to disallow your insurance claim. Just because you pay insurance doesn’t mean the claim will be paid, and even if they do, your insurance company could turn around and sue you for your negligence.
Based upon what you say about CA law, I would not own a plane in CA. Perhaps you should register it somewhere else.
As many doctors and other high income earners understand, if you engage in high risk behavior, either professionally or personally, you should do some learnin about “asset protection” techniques, and don’t hang your hat on your corp, LLC or your insurance.
For example; Can a creditor get your home in CA? They can’t in Florida, even if its worth 10 zillion dollars
There is no one answer. Seek the advise of the appropriate professionals. Put your aircraft in a LLC or corp. Carry appropriate insurance and only then, go and live your life and have fun. And before you do, put on your seatbelt.

Dennis@wesue4u.com

Dennis makes some very good points.

Here in South Carolina it is very common practice to put each real estate asset into a separate LLC.

Example:
I am a single member of an LLC that owns an office building. Some one walks into the building and slips and falls and is hurt. They sue the building owner which is the LLC, not me. Insurance pays off but they want more. Can they come after me personally against my other personal assets? Not likely, unless I was there and pushed the person causing the slip and fall. If I owned the office building personally they could come after everything I own.

The same example would apply if the plane is an asset of an LLC or corporation. Lets say your plane is in a group hanger and one night the CAPS system deploys and totals the other 4-5 planes in the hanger. The insurance on the plane is not enough to cover the damage and one of the other planes is not insured. It is going to be much more difficult for someone to come after your personal assets if you have a properly structured LLC or standard corporation that owns the plane.

I see plenty of good reasons to incorporate large value assets for personal protection and now with the ability to streamline the process by using LLC’s, I see very few reasons NOT to incorporate in these situations.

Mason

Dennis and Mason.

yes, yes, but…

guys, i’ve agreed with everything you’ve posted on the thread especially Dennis’ theme of the LL (limited liability) and Mason’s example of C (office building is obviously a business purpose). Here’s my but: if the sole point of SR22 ownership is personal pleasure can the asset be tucked into LLC without any clear business purpose? Im not talking about creatively establishing business purpose and profit objectives to fence with taxes accounting etc. I very much like the idea but havent heard any clear recommendations in Michigan from any legal/tax/ or trust experts yet… but I am still looking and hoping to find some.

I have been part of a limited partnership and was ‘additionally named insured’ for liability and I have formerly created LLC to leaseback emergency manuover trainer to flight school so I have worked with folks familiar with the concepts. But now I just want to enjoy my 22, protect my family, and not make any unnatural acts with regards to IRS.

although better discussed in other threads regarding insurance… i thought id mention that $1M smooth options are expanding rapidly for cirrus owners (thanks to COPA), it is still almost impossible for additional liability limits – best i’ve found elsewhere is to reapply AFTER 6 months ownership for an additional $2M.

In reply to:


if the sole point of SR22 ownership is personal pleasure can the asset be tucked into LLC without any clear business purpose?


YES;
There is no “business purpose” requirement. That’s a tax concept.

In reply to:


I am still looking and hoping to find some.


Than talk to a professional.
You need surgery, go to a doctor. Of course you could go to WebMD and than do it yourself.

In reply to:


I just want to enjoy my 22, protect my family, and not make any unnatural acts with regards to IRS.


Again, you are confusing the IRS tax concepts, with liability issues.
A little bit of information is a dangerous thing. If your are wealthy enough to have an airplane, you owe it to yourself and your family to do more than learn how to fly. You must either have a sound knowledge of the tax and liability issues, or you must surround yourself with people who have that knowledge.

In reply to:


i’ve found elsewhere is to reapply AFTER 6 months ownership for an additional $2M.


Do you really think 1-3 mil is enough?
Forget the passengers. . . just run into a Citation Jet and see if you have enough insurance.
You had better get a good understanding on your liability before you buy that plane and it wouldn’t hurt to get a good asset protection attorney on your side.
Don’t fly blind. Understand the risk, and I am not just talkin about flying

John,

The reason for the LLC is asset protection. There need not be another business purpose. Now, the more you treat the LLC like a business the harder it is for guys like Dennis to get through it and to your personal assets.

Now, if you are really concerned with asset protection as in your personal net worth, it is not the plane you want to put into an LLC but instead your personal assets.

Here is a strategy for you to discuss with your attorney:

Set up an international trust, then an LLC in your state. Register all of your personal assets in the name of the LLC (including your plane). You would be the manager of the LLC and would control all the assets. You and your family would be beneficiaries of the international trust. The structure can be set up to be income tax and estate tax neutral. You would still pay income tax on the LLC income on your personal return.

Now down the road you have reason to believe some one may sue you. The international trust liquidates the LLC and moves the assets offshore. A US judgment is not enforceable in another country. Most attorneys will not want to take a case like this against in that they would have a hard time working for a contingency fee in another country.

This is not that complex for an attorney who practices in international trust work and knows the laws of your state well. Depending on the size of your estate this could be a good strategy and the legal fees to set it up may be far less than insurance premiums on millions of dollars in coverage.

Mason

In reply to:


A US judgment is not enforceable in another country


Mason;
You are on the right track but that is not necessarily correct I have enforced US judgments in many foreign countries, but not all.
You have to pick your countries carefully.
Like I said. When you want to fly a Cirrus, go to a Cirrus qualified instructor.
When you want to protect your family . . . get good advise.
I make less keeping people out of trouble than getting them out of trouble, but fortunately most people buy things before they understand the risks of owning things.

Dennis,

In reply to:


I make less keeping people out of trouble than getting them out of trouble, but fortunately most people buy things before they understand the risks of owning things.


fortunately for you maybe!!! For me I keep more of what I own by understanding it before I buy it. I have always said one makes or loses money when they buy something not when they sell something. It is always the terms of the buy that dictate the sale of the future.

Agreed, it does depend on the country. That is why an attorney well versed in international trust work is important in this strategy.

I also agree that understanding the risk ahead of time is very important. Good advice is very important. Finding it sometimes is most times the difficult part.

I deal with lots of attorneys and lots of documents in my line of work. Getting a good legal structure that also accomplishes the intended goal (personal or business) is a “team” effort with the person benefiting from the advice and outcome needing to be the strong quarterback of that team.

Mason

PS: advise???

Gee Mason
Wanna get married. You agree with me far more than my wife [;)]

In reply to:


Gee Mason
Wanna get married. You agree with me far more than my wife


Or is it you that agrees with me???
And my wife is far better looking than you good buddy!!!

I editied my last post BTW

Mason

Two aviation attorneys in California have told me that for private flying the only protection worth having is adequate insurance. In other states things may be different.

The key point is that in a partnerhship you may not be protected from the acts of other partners.

Any major aviation accident will have a complex history, but I do not believe you can hide behind an LLC in CA.

In reply to:


Two aviation attorneys in California have told me


He said, she said, they said, unnamed people, Have “them” call me. Either Kalefornia is anti airplane ownership or your “advisors” are hiding in the spider holes of confusion.