Wake Up Call

Guest Discussion
1

I had my first wake up call yesterday when I lost most of my avionics shortly after takeoff. I have never ever had any kind of problem flying before and I thought I would detail my experience as it may be interesting to some especially in light of the recent crashes.

Yesterday, Super Bowl Sunday, I departed Ocean Springs Airport (5R2) near Biloxi with my wife and another couple in route to Columbus, Ga. (Small airport, convenient to Casinos, nice folks, I recommend highly).

I climbed to 3000 ft VFR and called Mobile Approach to pick up my IFR Clearence. I had just received my Clearance and was getting ready to start my climb into IMC and the Mobile Class C airspace when my MFD, #2 Garmin, Transponder and a few other instruments went out without warning.

The controller called about the same time and said to recycle the transponder. So, I was trying to figure out what was going on, noticed one circuit breaker popped out and pushed it back in. Nothing happened, so my instinct told me I did not want to fly the plane like that. I called approach and told him I had lost most of my avionics and would like to turn around and land at the airport I just passed. I asked for a vector and landed (no flaps) at Trent Lott International without a problem.

I thought I had probably lost an alternator. The plane did what it was suppose to, I think, because I still had my number 1 radio. However that #1 Garmin looks real small when you are use to looking at that big MFD all the time. The only other observation after I landed was after I shut down I turned Batt 1 and 2 back on and my prop started turning which I new wasn’t right.

Not many folks around on Super Bowl Sunday. I didn’t have any phone numbers so I got on the Internet at the FBO and logged into the COPA site to ask someone for help. I got a call on my cell phone almost immediately from Mike Radomsky who was a great help in diagnosing the problem and getting Cirrus on the phone for me so I could determine what to do. Mike, if you are listening, thank you so much for your help. I had a few more calls to help which I do appreciate. Cirrus suggested I leave the plane as it would probably take several days to get done. We rented a car and drove home (Long drive and yes I still hate driving).

I talked to a very capable Mechanic this morning who was going to call the Cirrus contact I had talked with. I feel like I left the plane in capable hands.

Now the Wake up call part and some observations:

I have about 55 hours in the Cirrus. I am a fair weather instrument rated pilot with 570 hours. I don’t fly at night (interferes with cocktail hour). I know my limitations and I don’t make it hard on myself to fly in all kinds of weather, therefore, I don’t get a lot of actual IMC flying. I pass through cloud layers from time to time and do an occasional ILS approach and that is about all the practice I get.

My experience yesterday that was really wasn’t an emergency made me realize I really haven’t given emergency situations enough thought. What if I had lost all those instruments just after takeoff in IMC. What would I have done? Was I ready for that situation? I frankly didn’t have confidence in the instruments that were seeming still working. How would I react to that?

I feel I would just act on instinct and not much else. All of a sudden I have a lot of questions that aren’t common knowledge to me like who are my going to call? what if there is no mechanic where I land? Do I land at that small airport anyway where there is probably no one to help? Does Cirrus have a traveling Mechanic to fix my plane? Do I leave my plane? Just a lot of questions that was not in my training at Cirrus or all of the reading materials.

I am registered to attend the Cirrus Training in Sarasota next month and I am now very glad I decided to do it and look forward to it. I have a lot of questions.

I have read over all the manuals a couple of times and now wish there was a little extra available in addition to the Cirrus and COPA training like some specific Cirrus training on video or DVD that utilizes an instrument panel and a trainer to covers these emergencies, what some of the problems are that have occurred with these aircraft and how the plane will react and so on. This would be fairly inexpensive. Cirrus ought to pay for it but if they didn’t I would gladly pay COPA or whomever for such presentations. Looking at the Insurance cost, a $100 for a quality tape or two is nothing. Maybe COPA could just record parts of the proficiency training. I will sit down and watch a video at my convenience and I think it would go a long way to improve my instincts. Thanks. Hope this wasn’t to long and boring.

2

Sounds like you fried the MCU with a stuck starter.
Does anyone have a way, other than pulling the starter breaker, to be sure when can prevent this from happrning to all of us? You cannot hear the starter once the engine catches. Is there any other clue to watch for such as an amp spike or excessive alternator output?

3

Brian:

I was taught to cycle the toggle switch and look at both Alt1 and Alt2 ammeter readings just after start. You quickly learn the normal appearance…on my 22 one bus shows about a 12-14 amp load (the normal avionics load) and the other shows about a needle width load - I can’t remember which is which. A stuck starter is rumored to act as a generator, showing a substantial CHARGE rather than the normal drain on the battery. I don’t know if this is exactly correct, but it stands to reason that a serious electrical anomoly will show up as an unusual current reading on one bus or the other.

Tim

4

Brian: Re: “Sounds like you fried the MCU with a stuck starter.
Does anyone have a way, other than pulling the starter breaker”

I believe the breaker is the starter relay, not the starter itself. If the starter is stuck, the most likely cause is that the starter contact is stuck, since that is the contact that carries the starter current. If the failure was in the ignition switch or in the wiring which caused the starter relay to continue to be energized then pulling the starter relay breaker would interrupt the current to the coil. I would be interested to see exactly what the cause of the failure was, but I suspect it was in the contacts not in the coil wiring.

The suggestion to watch the current on the ammeter is a great one. I usually see only a slight charge on the number 1 alternator and a very slight charge on the number 2 alternator when I do the checklist per the Avidyne checklist. . Any variation from these normal values is cause for investigation, not a take off. I do the checklist at the runup area, and by then most of the drain from the battery has been replenished by the alternator so that the alternator output at that point is mostly going to avionics and instruments.

5

Eddie stated that turning on the bat switches started the prop turning. That is different than what I experienced. My starters were fried and contactors welded so the battery still had a load, even with everything “switched off”. I still had only the essential bus items online.

I read somewhere that there were some changes made to the MCU. Can anyone elaborate?

Eddie, did both ALT lights illuminate? Did Cirrus replace your lightweight starter with the (apparently more reliable) heavy starter?

If changes were made to the MCU, and the lightweight starters have been determined to be problematic, I wonder if there is anything in the works by Cirrus to take care of this problem in planes that are in service and flying.

6

I have to ask, are other planes that use this starter having in flight electric failures or is this only a Cirrus design problem like the landing lights, HSI’s, vacuum pumps, flap relays, autopilots, etc?

7

In reply to:

If the starter is stuck, the most likely cause is that the starter contact is stuck, since that is the contact that carries the starter current.

I believe that in the case of the lightweight starters the problem is mechanical in nature, in that the coupling does not de-couple when the engine fires up.

8

I just got the February 2003 issue of AOPA Pilot. There is a good article on starters there that covers many of these points.

9

Yes both Alt lights illuminated. Yes, Cirrus was to send a new starter and MCU. I was fortunate that the AP there was very capable with electrical type problems. I hope to hear from him today. He said when ran a hot line to the Battery the propeller started to turn. I need to double check that statement. It would be interesting to know how many starters there are out there and how many problems there have been to date. It may ought to be a service bulletin issue.

10

Art, I have a new starter in my Piper Warrior (with an IO-320 engine), but the model name eludes me. It was represented to me as being much lighter (50% at least) than the standard and more powerful. I suspect it is the same type as that in the Cirrus. I also have the new light-weight starter in my new Pitts (brand new engine, Lycoming AEIO-540). Both work great and I’ve had no problems. However, the Pitts only has 30 hours TT, and there is about the same time on the Warrior, since the starter was installed.

11

In reply to:

I have to ask, are other planes that use this starter having in flight electric failures

The answer to your question is yes - these problems with the Skytec starter are widespread. See this usenet post, which I’ve copied below as well. There are many others.

From: CASWELL P (caswellp@aol.com)
Subject: Continental Engines and Skytech Starters
Newsgroups: rec.aviation.owning
Date: 2002-11-20 07:22:53 PST

This is an informative post for all airplane owners that have Continental Engines that have installed or are thinking about installing a new permanent magnet light weight starter, a common known brand such as Skytech.

History: I have a 1979 Seneca that I have completely restored and in the process I added two new skytech starters to reduce my overall empty weight. I had purchased skytech starters for my Cherokee 180 and Cherokee 6 and was quite pleased.

First problem I ran into was that their heavy-duty starters did not work at all. Skytech ended up sending out a recall notice and they replaced them with their normal lightweight design. I then added copper cables to assist the starting procedure.
I flew the plane for about 40 hours over a period of 45 days and the only abnormality I had experienced was on occasion my right engine would turn over half a blade then stop. So I asked my A&P to change the oil on both engines and check to see if there was a problem. My A&P ran across the same behavior but also heard what I was not hearing in the cockpit. There was a grinding noise coming from the starter and starter adapter area.

After disassembly of the starter adapter we found that the spring on the gear shaft was broken. As I understand, starter adapters on Continentals have always been a common weak point. So I ordered a new starter adapter, which was over $1,000 with an added core charger of $1,200. A note was included with the new starter adapter that warned about placing the starter adapter on an engine that had a new permanent magnet lightweight starter. The note continued on to say that the new lightweight starter did not allow the spring on the gear shaft to be released after the engine started. Continued operation in this state could possibly cause catastrophic failure of either the starter or starter adapter.

My first call was to skytech to understand what the problem was and see what solution they might suggest. I was told that as long as I had enough oil lubricating the starter adapter shaft (which is the same oil supplied by the engine) I should not have a problem. They were also quick to offer a full refund if I was unhappy.

I called a few other people that either had the same problems or were shops that overhauled starter adapters. One person said that they had seen failure of starter adapters every 25 to 50 hours and recommended me to replace my lightweight starters with the originals. I took the advice and had my A&P replace both lightweight starters with my originals that I had retained since they were still in good working order.

I called skytech again to see if they had knowledge that there were customers out in the field having problems and what they were doing about them. Of course they flatly denied responsibility and that the reports of problems were small. As the person stated on the phone “The reports of any problems are in an acceptable range compared to the number of starter that have been produced since we first started selling them in September of 2000.” Skytech did say they were working on a new design that would allow the starter to spin freely in both directions allowing the spring to release. I asked for a refund and some sort of financial relief from them regarding the labor and starter adapter replacement. They refused to refund any other money expect for the direct costs of the starters. They feel that the fault lies in the design of the starter adapter even though they are planning on coming out with a new starter that addresses these issues.

My Rant: I feel that skytech is making a poor business decision not helping their customers with the financial burden of a new starter adapter and labor in order to keep their customers happy. Especially since the small amount of people having problems is an “acceptable” level to them. By the way I just received my $1,200 credit for the core charge of the old starter adapter minus $460 since the shaft was beyond repair.

12

In reply to:

Art, I have a new starter in my Piper Warrior (with an IO-320 engine), but the model name eludes me. It was represented to me as being much lighter (50% at least) than the standard and more powerful. I suspect it is the same type as that in the Cirrus. I also have the new light-weight starter in my new Pitts (brand new engine, Lycoming AEIO-540). Both work great and I’ve had no problems. However, the Pitts only has 30 hours TT, and there is about the same time on the Warrior, since the starter was installed.

Hi Dave,

Unless Continental and Lycoming use the same starter, I suspect these not to be the same type as in the Cirrus. IIRC the IO-320 in your Warrior is also a Lycoming?

Steve

13

Unless Continental and Lycoming use the same starter, I suspect these not to be the same type as in the Cirrus. IIRC the IO-320 in your Warrior is also a Lycoming?<<

Yep…both are Lycomings. And I haven’t a clue whether the starter fits in a Continental.

14

Gordon,

I brought this up on the forum back in July, didn’t get much interest in the forums. I assumed it was only happening to me, although what are the chances of it happening twice?

Click here to read the July thread .

15

Gordon,

I checked my engine manual and do, in fact, have a Skytech starter installed on my Lycoming AEIO 540 engine. I didn’t bother to remember the starter model or serial number (I could check again this evening). Do you know if I should be concerned about the issues being discussed here, or are they limited to Continental installations?

David

16

Yep - your mechanic was right.

17

In reply to:

Do you know if I should be concerned about the issues being discussed here, or are they limited to Continental installations?

I believe there were some complaints from Lyc users as well. If you do a Google search (and Usenet search as well - go to the Google Groups page) for “sky-tec” there’s a fair amount of information.