The Cirrus and Turbulence

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In reply to:


Is there an issue with the Cirrus and turbulence causing a spin?


Ed,
Based on 1000+ hours at the controls of an SR22 including some short struggles with severe turbulence, I donÂ’t believe that a Cirrus is more susceptible to departing controlled flight than any other airplane in its category. In fact, I fully believe that it is less susceptible with its advanced wing design and positive control authority.

I have done many maneuvers (all within POH limitations) over the last couple of years trying to see where the airplane might “bite,” and all I have found is a very docile and controllable airplane through all types of stalls, slips, steep banks and anything else I throw at it within reason.

I fully agree with the autopilot theory in terms of potentially triggering (or at least aiding) an upset, but I just don’t understand what turns an “upset” into a complete departure from controlled flight in this airplane—bad turbulence or not. Hopefully, in regards to British Columbia and California, the respective safety-boards will be able to come to a decent probable cause. Thanks to CAPS, they have the pilots as first-hand witnesses. [:)]

(I split this thread since Dave accidentally originally posted it under “looking for SR20 with PFD DELETED”)

In reply to:


I donÂ’t believe that a Cirrus is more susceptible to departing controlled flight than any other airplane in its category.


I agree totally. In the rough air I have flown in the Cirrus is very stable. In fact with its wing loading it rides turbulance better than many other types I have flown.

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I fully agree with the autopilot theory in terms of potentially triggering (or at least aiding) an upset


This is something I hope someone gets to the bottom of. For some time in rough air I have generally chosen to hand fly the plane. Now I think it will be a rule.

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Thanks to CAPS, they have the pilots as first-hand witnesses.


Hallalujah.

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I have done many maneuvers (all within POH limitations) over the last couple of years trying to see where the airplane might “bite,” and all I have found is a very docile and controllable airplane through all types of stalls, slips, steep banks and anything else I throw at it within reason.


But what would you do if it bit you?
Andy and others…
We are not test pilots. Exploring the corners of the flight envelope tips the balance of risk management vs. knowing your airplane.

I had a very good friend who used to check out the corners of the flight envelope the airplanes he flew. He was a better stick and rudder man than me and likely any other guy here… 'cept the lurking R.H. Bob Hoover. Bush pilot, areobatic performer etc. By 57 years old he had flown well over 12,000 hours in GA, flown 400+ types including the first flights on over a hundred homebuilts. He was a guru of Comanche’s. Maintenance, flight, training etc. He won the Sun 100 Race in his heavily modified Twin Comanche.
He was my friend and a friend to many, many others.
Exploring the stall corner of the flight envelope in a Velocity. Billed as being “stall proof”. (I always wondered how they landed and kept the always flying plane on the grund!?!?!)
He found the limit.
He’s dead.
Just like the guys in New York who went out and kept trying to spin their new SR22. Likely just checked out the spin chacteristics.
Please guys, don’t be the one to find the limits on your plane.

.

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In the rough air I have flown in the Cirrus is very stable. In fact with its wing loading it rides turbulence better than many other types I have flown.


This has been my experience as well.

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For some time in rough air I have generally chosen to hand fly the plane. Now I think it will be a rule.


I don’t mind letting Mr. Otto Pilot fly 4AG in rough air. However, after many autopilot failures (in both bank and pitch) my reflexes remain on hair-trigger alert if anything starts to go amiss. In other words, I watch the autopilot like itÂ’s one of my former hot female flight-students (whom, incidentally, Dennis is currently trying to track down so he can acquire 4AG as his '22 upgrade through a civil lawsuit [:)]).

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For some time in rough air I have generally chosen to hand fly the plane. Now I think it will be a rule.


Intersting, I usually let George do the work - especially in rough air - with the following two additional actions:

First I keep my left hand in a position immediately able to grab the stick.

Secondly, I keep my feet on the rudder pedals with some pressure to act as a bit of a yaw damper.

Third, (I did say three didn’t I?) if IMC, I keep a very close eye on the six pack (of instruments) as if stick flying.

Lastly, since speculations seems to be focusing on George combined with turbulence being a factor in the departure from controlled flight, I believe that George will disconnect itself if the Bank or Pitch angles exceed certain preset limits. It would seem to me that strong turbulence, sufficient to cause a pitch-up and or bank sufficient to disconnect the A/P, could catch a pilot momentarily unprepared and casue an upset.

Having said that, I would like to say that in such conditions, there are few pilots that I would rather be flying with than Bill Graham.

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For some time in rough air I have generally chosen to hand fly the plane.


Roger,

I do the same. I find that the ride is much smoother if I hand fly it, since the AP doesn’t react as fast.

Walt

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We are not test pilots.


Agreed.

But when training Ronald Stevens for his private, it was necessary to probe the envelope just a bit. For instance, you have to let a student do a departure stall maybe just a little uncoordinated so he can learn what happens.

(note: I have not yet seen a Cirrus do anything untoward at all - characteristics have always been very benign. Not necessarily what you want in a training airplane, IMHO)

I did forego a few of my favorites: accelerated stalls, cross-control stalls, feet-on-the-floor departure stalls, “falling leaf” and, of course spins. I also tried to do the maneuvers at 4,000’ or above, and found myself glancing at the chute handle “just in case”.

I would make a strong case that the few “Cirrus Only” pilots we have here should find a Citabria or even a 152/172 and to go up with an instructor willing to wring it out. There’s nothing like a spin, incipient or full, to convince you of the possible consequences of sloppy flying.

Back to the issue at hand, I generally let the autopilot fly in turbulence, but always have my hand “cupping” the stick just in case. And I find the ride in turbulence better than my Tiger and MUCH better than the average small high-wing.

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We are not test pilots


Robert,
I’m not going to argue with that because you are right. However, many pilots are also dead because they always existed so close to the center of the flight-envelope, that the moment something out of the complete ordinary happened, they hadn’t a clue what to do and consequently lost control of their aircraft and crashed. The flight-envelope is certified and there for a reason. It has been probed to the corners and beyond by professional test-pilots. All the same, I do agree that we should not just go looking for trouble for troubleÂ’s sake.
Many aircraft have “bad” manners within their flight-envelope, but bad-manners do not necessarily extrapolate to killer-manners. On the other hand, inadvertently stumbling on these bad-manners during a nice happy ignorant flight can kill.

My reason for exploring the flight-envelope is so that I can get a good feel for the aircraft I am flying. Before it gets lost in the noise, let me just repeat that I’m certainly not advocating probing outside the flight-envelope. I have never looped, rolled, spun or done any other foolish maneuvers in 4AG. In fact, I’ve only done the normal maneuvers you would find in any private-pilot syllabus. My point is that I have explored these maneuvers in detail and have not found any mannerisms that strike me as an “accident waiting to happen” in the Cirrus. That said, I appreciate what you are saying.

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Exploring the stall corner of the flight envelope in a VelocityÂ…Billed as being "stall proof"Â…He found the limitÂ…He’s dead


Sorry to hear that. I’m going to reach way back in my memory here, but was this the result of the infamous “deep stall” phenomenon? If I recall correctly, the aircraft would enter an unrecoverable state and “parachute” into the ground at a relatively high rate of descent (~2,500 to 3,000+ FPM). You probably already know this, but amazingly, a number of guys survived these descents albeit with severe injuries.

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Just like the guys in New York who went out and kept trying to spin their new SR22. Likely just checked out the spin chacteristics.


I just mentioned those guys in another post tonight. Again, they were acting way outside the flight-envelope in direct violation of the operating limitations if the eyewitnesses are correct (which I believe they are).

Eddie and Andy,
Indeed the Cirrus is a very docile and well mannered airplane in all stall and near-stall regimens. It was designed that way and well flight tested under the regimen of a professional and well planned test flight regimen.
Teaching and practicing stalls in the Cirrus is a great idea and you really do have to work at it to get it to bite.
The point I was trying to make was that it is not a good idea to have to see for one’s self where it just might bite you. I suspect that when such a stable airplane is finally upset such that it will bite you, that its inherent stability will cause it to become stable in such a manoeuver as a spin. Such a spin can be unrecoverable.
Your suggestion of spin and other unusual attitude raining in an approriate aircraft such as the Citabri is excellent.
I spent the $$ and got wrung out in a Pitts for 10 hours, flew a Zlin for a few years, and am soon to do the unusual attitude recovery training in an Extra 300 up here in Canada.
It is incredibly worthwhile to experience all that can happen in an airplane with an experienced aerobatic instructor. It gives you both respect of the possibilites and confidence that most are recoverable. This can be carried over into our Cirrus cruising.

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I did forego a few of my favorites: accelerated stalls, cross-control stalls, feet-on-the-floor departure stalls, “falling leaf” and, of course spins. I also tried to do the maneuvers at 4,000’ or above, and found myself glancing at the chute handle “just in case”.


I have done some of those maneuvers in 4AG (not falling leaf, as I do believe that one is asking for trouble in an aircraft not certified for spins), but I have been solo, and have made 10,000 feet (9,000+ AGL) my “hard-deck”

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I would make a strong case that the few “Cirrus Only” pilots we have here should find a Citabria or even a 152/172 and to go up with an instructor willing to wring it out. There’s nothing like a spin, incipient or full, to convince you of the possible consequences of sloppy flying.


I would back that up 100%. I have done aerobatics in a Cap 10, and spins in numerous (not Cirrus) aircraft. It was especially sobering to me how quickly someone could potentially flip a Cessna 152 over on base-to-final if they held that rudder pedal and pulled back far enough on the yoke. There is no substitute for having “been there, done that” when it comes to unusual attitudes and spins (with a properly certified aircraft and instructor).

In reply to:


It is incredibly worthwhile to experience all that can happen in an airplane with an experienced aerobatic instructor. It gives you both respect of the possibilites and confidence that most are recoverable. This can be carried over into our Cirrus cruising.


Very true! I would recommend this to anyone who can stomach it, and even those who can’t (that’s what the occasional doggy bag is for). This type of training could potentially save your life.

Rob, I infer from the location (Canada) and the type of a/c (Extra 300L) that you’ll be taking the Fighter Combat Int’l EMT course. I’ve taken it the last two years - this year as a refresher plus the Instrument sessions (flying acro under the hood is an amazing experience). I highly recommend it. Great instructors and the course materials including ground instruction were exceptional.

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Have you done a stall in a Columbia 350 or 400?


Scott,

I haven’t actually had a chance to fly either aircraft yet, but I’m looking forward to demoing a 400 at some point in the near future. Lance Niebauer really knows how to design a good airplane, so I’m not surprised with what you have found. However, your findings are very interesting. Whenever I do get a demo, I’ll try a stall to see what you are talking about. [:)]

When we bought our SR22 we demoed the 350. I think that part of the reason that you can pull all of the way back and not have the plane drop the nose is because they limited the amount of elevator control.

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Very true! I would recommend this to anyone who can stomach it, and even those who can’t (that’s what the occasional doggy bag is for).


Please, out of respect for the many golden retrievers that are members of COPA, change “doggie bag” to “barf bag”!

I’m a relatively newly minted pilot (ticket last July, 280 hours now), and I like to take every opportunity I can to fly other types. Every time I do so, I find myself feeling more competent every time I strap into my 20.

So far on my non-Cirrus excursions I have done spin training in a 150 aerobat, mountain flying in a Cherokee in Sedona, gotten my seaplane rating in a Lake Bucanneer outside of Las Vegas, and completed my multi rating in a Beech Travelair. Next on my list is taildragger endorsement in a Citabria (this weekend if the weather agrees), and then on to some aerobatics training in a Pitts. Meanwhile I plan on finishing my instrument rating this year…though I will do that in my 20.

I wholeheartedly agree that training in other planes will make you a better Cirrus pilot, at least from a stick and rudder perspective.

Marty

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Please, out of respect for the many golden retrievers that are members of COPA, change “doggie bag” to “barf bag”!


Far be it from me to be so insensitive. [:D] Done. “Barf bag” it is. You know, incidentally, I’m looking for some good dogs to interview for some important research… [;)]

In reply to:


I’m a relatively newly minted pilot (ticket last July, 280 hours now), and I like to take every opportunity I can to fly other types. Every time I do so, I find myself feeling more competent every time I strap into my 20.
So far on my non-Cirrus excursions I have done spin training in a 150 aerobat, mountain flying in a Cherokee in Sedona, gotten my seaplane rating in a Lake Bucanneer outside of Las Vegas, and completed my multi rating in a Beech Travelair. Next on my list is taildragger endorsement in a Citabria (this weekend if the weather agrees), and then on to some aerobatics training in a Pitts. Meanwhile I plan on finishing my instrument rating this year…though I will do that in my 20.
Marty


Gliders Marty. You forgot gliders. You will learn more about mimimum control speed flying from gliders. You will learn how airplanes really fly. You can also do aerobatics in a glider. They are cheap, use no gas, cannot run out of fuel and can be both very intense as well as very relaxing at the same time. Just you and the birds, going nowhere.

Aha! I will have to add gliders to my list!

Marty