On my acceptance flight in a SR22, which accounts for my entire 0.6 hours in type, I noticed that the pitch trim was mighty sensitive. I pride myself on having a light touch on the controls, but the sensitivity of the pitch trim seemed excessive to the degree that it seemed doubtful that one could learn to “blip” it briefly enough so as not to cause a bobble. This was most noticeable when transitioning to level flight after climbout.
I was told that a “work around” was to engage the autopilot and altitude hold and let the autopilot make the transition, then disengage the autopilot, and, viola, you’re trimmed. That sounds like what it is – a work around.
I was told by an old FAA salt once that trim rate is predicated at maneuvering speed. I did a search of Part 23 and didnÂ’t see any specific reference to that, although there are some references to trim rate in Part 25, which wouldnÂ’t apply. Part 23.677 does specify that when any one connecting or transmitting element in the primary flight control system fails, adequate control for safe flight and landing is available withÂ… the longitudinal trimming devices. No mention of rate.
In any case, it is radically different from the electric trim in my Bonanza 36, which is so slow as to be almost useless, especially when transitioning to landing configuration.
SR22 drivers out there – what’s your experience with the pitch trim sensitivity? Is it something that you can learn to use in a way that allows for smooth transitions? Are the majority of transitions in practice done by the Autopilot as opposed to hand-flying?
Gordon
SR22 drivers out there – what’s your experience with the pitch trim sensitivity? Is it something that you can learn to use in a way that allows for smooth transitions?
If it’s the same as or similar to the SR20 pitch trim, then yes, it is sensitive, but you can learn to “blip” it to achieve a level trimmed state without too much difficulty.
Thank you Gordon for not only noticing but speaking your opinion. I would agree with you on the sensitivity. My wish list would be to have a faster rudder trim and slower pitch trim. Especially when your fuel tanks become a little imbalanced a finer trim pitch would be safer to keep the aircraft in level flight. I expect a barrage of opinion to switch tanks often and I do have the garmin to remind me every 15 minutes. The SR22 is sensitive to weight of fuel, passenger loading and the trim tab would be an answer if less sensitive. I’ve heard the autopilot round about and have used it but no always practical when your in the traffic pattern. So since it’s my birthday today I wish for less sensitive pitch trim and faster rudder trim!! That’s more likely than my Claudia Schiffer or Sandra Bullock wishes the past few years. Rick Kummerow N122KM
On my acceptance flight in a SR22, which accounts for my entire 0.6 hours in type, I noticed that the pitch trim was mighty sensitive. I pride myself on having a light touch on the controls, but the sensitivity of the pitch trim seemed excessive to the degree that it seemed doubtful that one could learn to “blip” it briefly enough so as not to cause a bobble. This was most noticeable when transitioning to level flight after climbout.
I was told that a “work around” was to engage the autopilot and altitude hold and let the autopilot make the transition, then disengage the autopilot, and, viola, you’re trimmed. That sounds like what it is – a work around.
I was told by an old FAA salt once that trim rate is predicated at maneuvering speed. I did a search of Part 23 and didnÂ’t see any specific reference to that, although there are some references to trim rate in Part 25, which wouldnÂ’t apply. Part 23.677 does specify that when any one connecting or transmitting element in the primary flight control system fails, adequate control for safe flight and landing is available withÂ… the longitudinal trimming devices. No mention of rate.
In any case, it is radically different from the electric trim in my Bonanza 36, which is so slow as to be almost useless, especially when transitioning to landing configuration.
SR22 drivers out there – what’s your experience with the pitch trim sensitivity? Is it something that you can learn to use in a way that allows for smooth transitions? Are the majority of transitions in practice done by the Autopilot as opposed to hand-flying?
Gordon
Gordon,
IMHO, Clyde is dead on. Given that you are a highly experienced pilot, and are not trying to fly the airplane with the trim, the only remaining cause of the problem is that you are overtrimming due to the sensitivity of the trim control. Duh, I think that’s what you said in your first post.
Bruce Gunter, a Cirrus salesman, showed me his technique. He gave the trim hat a quick flick with his thumb, making sure to take his thumb off the hat after flicking it. Just like bowling and baseball, it’s all in the follow-through.
Even if you have 100,000 hours of solo time in the space shuttle, you’ll still need a little practice to trim smoothly, but it can be done.
-Mike
SR22 drivers out there ? what?s your experience with the pitch trim sensitivity? Is it something that you can learn to use in a way that allows for smooth transitions?
If it’s the same as or similar to the SR20 pitch trim, then yes, it is sensitive, but you can learn to “blip” it to achieve a level trimmed state without too much difficulty.
Yep, the 20 and 22 trim is the same. It does take some getting used to–you pretty much just stab at it…
Yeah, but are the “blips” noticeable to passengers? That’s my issue. I think it reflects poorly on the pilot, or in this case the aircraft, if the aircraft cannot be smoothly leveled off and trimmed.
If it’s the same as or similar to the SR20 pitch trim, then yes, it is sensitive, but you can learn to “blip” it to achieve a level trimmed state without too much difficulty.
Yeah, but are the “blips” noticeable to passengers?
No, because you don’t actually change the pitch with the trim, what you do is level the aircraft with hand pressure on the side-yoke, then trim out the pressure with the trim switch, so that the plane is flying straight and level the whole time. To put it another way, you always use your hand to fly the plane, and only adjust the trim when you notice that you are holding pressure on the yoke. Same with entering a climb, you pull back to start the climb, then after the speed and rate of climb have stabilised, adjust the trim to relieve whatever back pressure you are holding.
After some practice it becomes quite instinctive and you will cease to think about it. Right now you are doing everything very consciously, so you will not be as smooth as when you have got more experience.
Clyde:
Uh, I think as a 3500+ hour ATP/CFI I know how to trim an airplane. But thanks for the refresher! ;>
What I am saying is that it would seem that no matter how hard you attempt to hold the aircraft pitch rock-stable with your hand on the side yoke that your trim blips will wiggle the jello.
My goal is to perform the level off (and all pitch changes for that matter) so smoothly that the only thing a passenger notices is a change in the noise level.
Gordon
Yeah, but are the “blips” noticeable to passengers?
No, because you don’t actually change the pitch with the trim, what you do is level the aircraft with hand pressure on the side-yoke, then trim out the pressure with the trim switch, so that the plane is flying straight and level the whole time. To put it another way, you always use your hand to fly the plane, and only adjust the trim when you notice that you are holding pressure on the yoke. Same with entering a climb, you pull back to start the climb, then after the speed and rate of climb have stabilised, adjust the trim to relieve whatever back pressure you are holding.
After some practice it becomes quite instinctive and you will cease to think about it. Right now you are doing everything very consciously, so you will not be as smooth as when you have got more experience.
Gordon it sounds like you have got a huge ego. Clyde was offering advise. I was taught when you ask for advise, and someone give’s it to you, you say thank you and move on. If you want more advice you ask again, maybe in a different way.
Clyde:
Uh, I think as a 3500+ hour ATP/CFI I know how to trim an airplane. But thanks for the refresher! ;>
What I am saying is that it would seem that no matter how hard you attempt to hold the aircraft pitch rock-stable with your hand on the side yoke that your trim blips will wiggle the jello.
My goal is to perform the level off (and all pitch changes for that matter) so smoothly that the only thing a passenger notices is a change in the noise level.
Gordon
Yeah, but are the “blips” noticeable to passengers?
No, because you don’t actually change the pitch with the trim, what you do is level the aircraft with hand pressure on the side-yoke, then trim out the pressure with the trim switch, so that the plane is flying straight and level the whole time. To put it another way, you always use your hand to fly the plane, and only adjust the trim when you notice that you are holding pressure on the yoke. Same with entering a climb, you pull back to start the climb, then after the speed and rate of climb have stabilised, adjust the trim to relieve whatever back pressure you are holding.
After some practice it becomes quite instinctive and you will cease to think about it. Right now you are doing everything very consciously, so you will not be as smooth as when you have got more experience.
Gordon:
It has NOT been my experience in a few hours of flying the SR 20 that the trim is THAT sensitive.
Clyde’s advice and method is what I have found works perfectly. The trim will ease your hand pressure without the “jumps” and “blips” that you describe.
It suggests, therefore, that there may by a sensitivity problem with the trim on the individual airplane that you flew. Suggest you try another flight with Clyde’s methodology.
Brian
Clyde:
Uh, I think as a 3500+ hour ATP/CFI I know how to trim an airplane. But thanks for the refresher! ;>
What I am saying is that it would seem that no matter how hard you attempt to hold the aircraft pitch rock-stable with your hand on the side yoke that your trim blips will wiggle the jello.
My goal is to perform the level off (and all pitch changes for that matter) so smoothly that the only thing a passenger notices is a change in the noise level.
Gordon
Gordon, Clyde and others offered answers to your question. Hours and ratings don’t make the pilot good. Clyde’s answer is correct and it works.
Bill
Yeah, but are the “blips” noticeable to passengers?
No, because you don’t actually change the pitch with the trim, what you do is level the aircraft with hand pressure on the side-yoke, then trim out the pressure with the trim switch, so that the plane is flying straight and level the whole time. To put it another way, you always use your hand to fly the plane, and only adjust the trim when you notice that you are holding pressure on the yoke. Same with entering a climb, you pull back to start the climb, then after the speed and rate of climb have stabilised, adjust the trim to relieve whatever back pressure you are holding.
After some practice it becomes quite instinctive and you will cease to think about it. Right now you are doing everything very consciously, so you will not be as smooth as when you have got more experience.
What I am saying is that it would seem that no matter how hard you attempt to hold the aircraft pitch rock-stable with your hand on the side yoke that your trim blips will wiggle the jello.
Gordon, it’s just a new skill you have to learn and integrate into your subconscious like the others you have learnt along the way. Remember trying to master crosswind landings? I do, and I used to watch unbelievingly at the CFI’s effortless demonstrations, but with practice I too learnt to do it well enough so we could still use the plane again afterwards 
Think of it as a new challenge, but also accept that the harder you try, the worse you will perform, until one day you will suddenly realize that mastery of it has snuck up on you and the plane is as steady as a rock. Ain’t life grand?
I do apologize if offense was taken. None was intended. [Hence the winking emoticon in the message.] Of course I appreciate Clyde’s attempt to answer my question.
Yes, I do have a huge ego. Thanks for the compliment. ; > [Note winking emoticon.]
Gordon
Gordon it sounds like you have got a huge ego. Clyde was offering advise. I was taught when you ask for advise, and someone give’s it to you, you say thank you and move on. If you want more advice you ask again, maybe in a different way.
Thanks, Clyde. Yeah, I’m sure that it is something that becomes second nature, and I actually relish the process of “groking” a new airplane so as to fly it as precisely and smoothly as humanly possible. For me, the ongoing pursuit of the “perfect flight” is very enjoyable.
Gordon
Gordon, it’s just a new skill you have to learn and integrate into your subconscious like the others you have learnt along the way. Remember trying to master crosswind landings? I do, and I used to watch unbelievingly at the CFI’s effortless demonstrations, but with practice I too learnt to do it well enough so we could still use the plane again afterwards
Think of it as a new challenge, but also accept that the harder you try, the worse you will perform, until one day you will suddenly realize that mastery of it has snuck up on you and the plane is as steady as a rock. Ain’t life grand?
Rick, I’ve been waiting for your call. It’s never too late.
Sandra
Thank you Gordon for not only noticing but speaking your opinion. I would agree with you on the sensitivity. My wish list would be to have a faster rudder trim and slower pitch trim. Especially when your fuel tanks become a little imbalanced a finer trim pitch would be safer to keep the aircraft in level flight. I expect a barrage of opinion to switch tanks often and I do have the garmin to remind me every 15 minutes. The SR22 is sensitive to weight of fuel, passenger loading and the trim tab would be an answer if less sensitive. I’ve heard the autopilot round about and have used it but no always practical when your in the traffic pattern. So since it’s my birthday today I wish for less sensitive pitch trim and faster rudder trim!! That’s more likely than my Claudia Schiffer or Sandra Bullock wishes the past few years. Rick Kummerow N122KM
On my acceptance flight in a SR22, which accounts for my entire 0.6 hours in type, I noticed that the pitch trim was mighty sensitive. I pride myself on having a light touch on the controls, but the sensitivity of the pitch trim seemed excessive to the degree that it seemed doubtful that one could learn to “blip” it briefly enough so as not to cause a bobble. This was most noticeable when transitioning to level flight after climbout.
I was told that a “work around” was to engage the autopilot and altitude hold and let the autopilot make the transition, then disengage the autopilot, and, viola, you’re trimmed. That sounds like what it is – a work around.
I was told by an old FAA salt once that trim rate is predicated at maneuvering speed. I did a search of Part 23 and didnÂ’t see any specific reference to that, although there are some references to trim rate in Part 25, which wouldnÂ’t apply. Part 23.677 does specify that when any one connecting or transmitting element in the primary flight control system fails, adequate control for safe flight and landing is available withÂ… the longitudinal trimming devices. No mention of rate.
In any case, it is radically different from the electric trim in my Bonanza 36, which is so slow as to be almost useless, especially when transitioning to landing configuration.
SR22 drivers out there – what’s your experience with the pitch trim sensitivity? Is it something that you can learn to use in a way that allows for smooth transitions? Are the majority of transitions in practice done by the Autopilot as opposed to hand-flying?
Gordon
Rick,
I dropped by your office today to give you a happy birthday kiss, but they said you were busy in a meeting.
Maybe next year?
Love & Kisses,
Claudia
Rick,
I dropped by your office today to give you a happy birthday kiss, but they said you were busy in a meeting.
Maybe next year?
Love & Kisses,
Claudia
Back off, you German hussy! He’s mine and I want to have his love child. Just the thought of him in his big, manly, composite airplane with its advanced avionics and laminar-flow airfoils gives me goosebumps.
SB
Mike:
Yes, that is exactly the answer I was looking for. Thank you. I guess I assumed that the context of my question implied correct trimming technique, which of course dictates that one does not fly the airplane with the trim. (Unless, per Part 23.667, the primary flight control fails!)
So it does sound like you can refine the “blip” so that it doesn’t wiggle the jello. I suspected so, and my original inquiry was to see whether most pilots have adapted.
The academic question remains – why was such a rapid trim rate used? Was it to meet the Part 23.667 requirement? Was it arbitrary? Can it be changed by an A&P? (I suspect not.)
Gordon
Gordon,
IMHO, Clyde is dead on. Given that you are a highly experienced pilot, and are not trying to fly the airplane with the trim, the only remaining cause of the problem is that you are overtrimming due to the sensitivity of the trim control. Duh, I think that’s what you said in your first post.
Bruce Gunter, a Cirrus salesman, showed me his technique. He gave the trim hat a quick flick with his thumb, making sure to take his thumb off the hat after flicking it. Just like bowling and baseball, it’s all in the follow-through.
Even if you have 100,000 hours of solo time in the space shuttle, you’ll still need a little practice to trim smoothly, but it can be done.
-Mike