&quotNews&quot from Sun 'N' Fun

Guest Discussion
1

Hey folks,

Just arrived home from Sun n’ Fun after several days of walking and visiting. Getting in and out is always a big thrill and a definate “E” ticket (Disney speak).

Visited the Cirrus, the Lancair, the Garmin and Arnav booths. The Cirrus booth was absolutely packed with people and I understand we have some new position holders. Selling a Cirrus is such hard work…

Cirrus’ focus was on production and they did a good job of showing how this was coming along with large posters and a well done vidoe tape. They had two planes on display. A millenium graphics “C” model and an “A” model.

They looked great. For those who have not seen a Cirrus yet, these are large, impressive planes. They really stand out.

Spent a few minutes talking with Bruce Gunter (salesman for the East Coast for Cirrus) and Alan Klapmeyer(sp?) (President of Cirrus Design). We spoke about different options, current production figures, and what’s next. Alan is a very impressive businessman who has a vision of what he wants that is as clear as spring water. I am very happy I chose a Cirrus. This company is going places and is led by visonaries with good business sense.

However, I came away with more questions than answers, particularly with how I want my plane configured.

Originally, I thought I wanted the very best “c” model but I am not sure that this is a good value. I think I am going to get a “b” or “A” model with an altitude hold autopilot. The reason for this is that I cannot see having dual 430’s in the cockpit. Dual 430’s coupled with the ARNAV provides too much information for any human to effectivley use. I would like to hear from those who have bought dual 430’s good reasons for having them. I know you get ILS redundancy but what else?

I also thought I wanted an SR22 but I think I will wait for the retractable gear diesal (using a Renault engine or a Continental). Maybe I’ll take my high value SR 20 now and then wait for the 4 seat jet. Okay, a few years away but still, the SR22 is only going 20 knots faster (for how much more $'s ?) and I really want to clip along at 350 mph at 35,000 feet.

Okay- back to the Sun 'n fun

Went by the Lancair booth. The Columbia 300 is a beautiful aircraft and has nice performance figures. However, I think Lancair’s long range problem is that they are still not sure if they want to be a kit manufacturer or a production aircraft company. The message they were giving was not clear to me and I imagine thay are confusing a lot of potential customers.

The Lancair’s all glass cockpit is really impressive and I hope that future Cirrus’ will accomidate this futuristic and pilot friendly gadgetry. But I am happy with my choice of a Cirrus after having seen the Columbia 300 and met the Lancair folks. For those of us who are position holders and actual owners, we made the right choice.

Also visited Garmin and Arnav. The Garmin 430 is a beast (get out the operating manual). So much so that the Garmin guy couldn’t explain how to do some things. (okay, we asked tough questions). However, the first time I have programed a route into this thing and get the dreaded “we have an ammeded rotue for you, are you ready to copy?”, I think I am going to cry.

I don’t think I want two of these nasty little creatures in my cockpit. :wink:

Visited Arnav with the idea I would not like the system. However, I do. It performs a different function from the 430’s and the huge screen is very helpful. The WX Stormscope overlay is available now and the Nexrad weather uplink is available for half the country now. Maybe Cirrus needs to complete a few things before it is ready for us. The rest of the USA should have weather available in the next 6 months.

I think the Arnav is a good system that does not replace the 430. However, I don’t think the 430 or the new 530 really replace the Arnav. They truly are different systems.

Hope some of this “news” is interesting and helpful.

If the current owners (the “test” pilots with the right stuff) would chime in to tell us how they are using their avionics, it would be helpful for us followers.

Mark

2

I think the argument for the C package is autopilot glideslope coupling and Nav redundancy, with an honorable mention for the electric HSI. In a pinch it could be a lifesaver (and it makes it fairly easy to do ILSs as fast as the big guys; just start bleeding off throttle while you’re still a couple of miles out). For serious IFR work that seems to me like the way to go. It may not be macho, but that’s how the big boys do it most of the time.

The argument for the B is to split the difference in terms of IFR–add the second alternator to the package. The fact that the UI is common between the 420 and 430 will be helpful as well.

The argument for the A is of course value, particularly when you add altitude hold (I can’t imagine anybody not adding that option). Having been poring over the 430 manual, it’s hard to see being motivated to figure out another complex, sightly different unit, so I would guess that the 250XL will be demoted to being a Com radio and perhaps a pseudo-DME. I’d hate to be in a bunch of nasty weather with heavy traffic, have the 430 go up in smoke, and then try to figure out how to program the 250XL (since it will be your only source of Nav info).

BTW, the 430 may have a steep learning curve, but you should take a look at some of the earlier GPSs (like the KLN90B). The boxes are inherently complex, and they are somewhat hampered by the TSOs as to what they can do with the UI, but the Garmin is comparitively intuitive. For what it’s worth, the Garmin 295 handheld became quite easy to use with only about a half hour of goofing around with it, and it seems to share a lot of software with the 430.

I think you can’t have enough moving maps…and with dual 4x0s, you can always have one in map mode (with the numbers on the right side turned off to increase the map real estate) and one on the nav page (with fairly dense information) and have the ultimate split screen.

Just my humble opinion; hopefully this fall sometime I can speak more credibly after taking delivery…

3

Electrical systems, vacum systems, radios and pretty much everything else in an airplance can fail. The more you fly, the more likely something will fail. (I have experienced both a vaccum and a radio failure in the past - fortunately while VFR and not in controlled airspace.)

When its 2 am, and you are tired, and the rain if falling hard and the ceiling is 300 feet you WANT two ILS radios. In Canada, you NEED both radios to be legal IFR. (You need two separate radios and displays that would allow for the approach and alternate.) The GPS can only be used as a backup and only for GPS approved approaches. (Still very rare I am afraid.) GPS alone for the alternate is not legal.

There is a good reason why commerical folks fly with dual everything including two pilots and autopilots!

If you are a VFR pilot or your version of IFR is a decent through “thin broken” at noon with 2000 foot ceilings you will only need to get the “A”. If you are me and really fly IFR in real clouds for more than 60 seconds then you will get the “C” and fly your sailplane on the sunny days.

4

Hey folks,

Just arrived home from Sun n’ Fun after several days of walking and visiting. Getting in and out is always a big thrill and a definate “E” ticket (Disney speak).

Visited the Cirrus, the Lancair, the Garmin and Arnav booths. The Cirrus booth was absolutely packed with people and I understand we have some new position holders. Selling a Cirrus is such hard work…

Cirrus’ focus was on production and they did a good job of showing how this was coming along with large posters and a well done vidoe tape. They had two planes on display. A millenium graphics “C” model and an “A” model.

They looked great. For those who have not seen a Cirrus yet, these are large, impressive planes. They really stand out.

Spent a few minutes talking with Bruce Gunter (salesman for the East Coast for Cirrus) and Alan Klapmeyer(sp?) (President of Cirrus Design). We spoke about different options, current production figures, and what’s next. Alan is a very impressive businessman who has a vision of what he wants that is as clear as spring water. I am very happy I chose a Cirrus. This company is going places and is led by visonaries with good business sense.

However, I came away with more questions than answers, particularly with how I want my plane configured.

Originally, I thought I wanted the very best “c” model but I am not sure that this is a good value. I think I am going to get a “b” or “A” model with an altitude hold autopilot. The reason for this is that I cannot see having dual 430’s in the cockpit. Dual 430’s coupled with the ARNAV provides too much information for any human to effectivley use. I would like to hear from those who have bought dual 430’s good reasons for having them. I know you get ILS redundancy but what else?

I also thought I wanted an SR22 but I think I will wait for the retractable gear diesal (using a Renault engine or a Continental). Maybe I’ll take my high value SR 20 now and then wait for the 4 seat jet. Okay, a few years away but still, the SR22 is only going 20 knots faster (for how much more $'s ?) and I really want to clip along at 350 mph at 35,000 feet.

Okay- back to the Sun 'n fun

Went by the Lancair booth. The Columbia 300 is a beautiful aircraft and has nice performance figures. However, I think Lancair’s long range problem is that they are still not sure if they want to be a kit manufacturer or a production aircraft company. The message they were giving was not clear to me and I imagine thay are confusing a lot of potential customers.

The Lancair’s all glass cockpit is really impressive and I hope that future Cirrus’ will accomidate this futuristic and pilot friendly gadgetry. But I am happy with my choice of a Cirrus after having seen the Columbia 300 and met the Lancair folks. For those of us who are position holders and actual owners, we made the right choice.

Also visited Garmin and Arnav. The Garmin 430 is a beast (get out the operating manual). So much so that the Garmin guy couldn’t explain how to do some things. (okay, we asked tough questions). However, the first time I have programed a route into this thing and get the dreaded “we have an ammeded rotue for you, are you ready to copy?”, I think I am going to cry.

I don’t think I want two of these nasty little creatures in my cockpit. :wink:

Visited Arnav with the idea I would not like the system. However, I do. It performs a different function from the 430’s and the huge screen is very helpful. The WX Stormscope overlay is available now and the Nexrad weather uplink is available for half the country now. Maybe Cirrus needs to complete a few things before it is ready for us. The rest of the USA should have weather available in the next 6 months.

I think the Arnav is a good system that does not replace the 430. However, I don’t think the 430 or the new 530 really replace the Arnav. They truly are different systems.

Hope some of this “news” is interesting and helpful.

If the current owners (the “test” pilots with the right stuff) would chime in to tell us how they are using their avionics, it would be helpful for us followers.

Mark

I know this may soud stupid, but since I am new to the general aviation world, I’d like to know how long will this SUN & FUN last.

5

If you are in the soup and you need to make a change quickly or interperate something quickly, it will be easier, faster,and you will be less likely to make a mistake, if both radios are the same.

Hey folks,

Just arrived home from Sun n’ Fun after several days of walking and visiting. Getting in and out is always a big thrill and a definate “E” ticket (Disney speak).

Visited the Cirrus, the Lancair, the Garmin and Arnav booths. The Cirrus booth was absolutely packed with people and I understand we have some new position holders. Selling a Cirrus is such hard work…

Cirrus’ focus was on production and they did a good job of showing how this was coming along with large posters and a well done vidoe tape. They had two planes on display. A millenium graphics “C” model and an “A” model.

They looked great. For those who have not seen a Cirrus yet, these are large, impressive planes. They really stand out.

Spent a few minutes talking with Bruce Gunter (salesman for the East Coast for Cirrus) and Alan Klapmeyer(sp?) (President of Cirrus Design). We spoke about different options, current production figures, and what’s next. Alan is a very impressive businessman who has a vision of what he wants that is as clear as spring water. I am very happy I chose a Cirrus. This company is going places and is led by visonaries with good business sense.

However, I came away with more questions than answers, particularly with how I want my plane configured.

Originally, I thought I wanted the very best “c” model but I am not sure that this is a good value. I think I am going to get a “b” or “A” model with an altitude hold autopilot. The reason for this is that I cannot see having dual 430’s in the cockpit. Dual 430’s coupled with the ARNAV provides too much information for any human to effectivley use. I would like to hear from those who have bought dual 430’s good reasons for having them. I know you get ILS redundancy but what else?

I also thought I wanted an SR22 but I think I will wait for the retractable gear diesal (using a Renault engine or a Continental). Maybe I’ll take my high value SR 20 now and then wait for the 4 seat jet. Okay, a few years away but still, the SR22 is only going 20 knots faster (for how much more $'s ?) and I really want to clip along at 350 mph at 35,000 feet.

Okay- back to the Sun 'n fun

Went by the Lancair booth. The Columbia 300 is a beautiful aircraft and has nice performance figures. However, I think Lancair’s long range problem is that they are still not sure if they want to be a kit manufacturer or a production aircraft company. The message they were giving was not clear to me and I imagine thay are confusing a lot of potential customers.

The Lancair’s all glass cockpit is really impressive and I hope that future Cirrus’ will accomidate this futuristic and pilot friendly gadgetry. But I am happy with my choice of a Cirrus after having seen the Columbia 300 and met the Lancair folks. For those of us who are position holders and actual owners, we made the right choice.

Also visited Garmin and Arnav. The Garmin 430 is a beast (get out the operating manual). So much so that the Garmin guy couldn’t explain how to do some things. (okay, we asked tough questions). However, the first time I have programed a route into this thing and get the dreaded “we have an ammeded rotue for you, are you ready to copy?”, I think I am going to cry.

I don’t think I want two of these nasty little creatures in my cockpit. :wink:

Visited Arnav with the idea I would not like the system. However, I do. It performs a different function from the 430’s and the huge screen is very helpful. The WX Stormscope overlay is available now and the Nexrad weather uplink is available for half the country now. Maybe Cirrus needs to complete a few things before it is ready for us. The rest of the USA should have weather available in the next 6 months.

I think the Arnav is a good system that does not replace the 430. However, I don’t think the 430 or the new 530 really replace the Arnav. They truly are different systems.

Hope some of this “news” is interesting and helpful.

If the current owners (the “test” pilots with the right stuff) would chime in to tell us how they are using their avionics, it would be helpful for us followers.

Mark

6

Alright, alright, I’ll buy the “C” package. You guys must think money grows on trees or something. Besides, what’s another $30,000?

Mark

Ps - to get the needed money can I pitch some tech stocks on this forum that have failed to produce a good return over the last couple of weeks? :wink:

I think the argument for the C package is autopilot glideslope coupling and Nav redundancy, with an honorable mention for the electric HSI. In a pinch it could be a lifesaver (and it makes it fairly easy to do ILSs as fast as the big guys; just start bleeding off throttle while you’re still a couple of miles out). For serious IFR work that seems to me like the way to go. It may not be macho, but that’s how the big boys do it most of the time.

The argument for the B is to split the difference in terms of IFR–add the second alternator to the package. The fact that the UI is common between the 420 and 430 will be helpful as well.

The argument for the A is of course value, particularly when you add altitude hold (I can’t imagine anybody not adding that option). Having been poring over the 430 manual, it’s hard to see being motivated to figure out another complex, sightly different unit, so I would guess that the 250XL will be demoted to being a Com radio and perhaps a pseudo-DME. I’d hate to be in a bunch of nasty weather with heavy traffic, have the 430 go up in smoke, and then try to figure out how to program the 250XL (since it will be your only source of Nav info).

BTW, the 430 may have a steep learning curve, but you should take a look at some of the earlier GPSs (like the KLN90B). The boxes are inherently complex, and they are somewhat hampered by the TSOs as to what they can do with the UI, but the Garmin is comparitively intuitive. For what it’s worth, the Garmin 295 handheld became quite easy to use with only about a half hour of goofing around with it, and it seems to share a lot of software with the 430.

I think you can’t have enough moving maps…and with dual 4x0s, you can always have one in map mode (with the numbers on the right side turned off to increase the map real estate) and one on the nav page (with fairly dense information) and have the ultimate split screen.

Just my humble opinion; hopefully this fall sometime I can speak more credibly after taking delivery…

7

I think the argument for the C package is autopilot glideslope coupling and Nav redundancy, with an honorable mention for the electric HSI. In a pinch it could be a lifesaver (and it makes it fairly easy to do ILSs as fast as the big guys; just start bleeding off throttle while you’re still a couple of miles out). For serious IFR work that seems to me like the way to go. It may not be macho, but that’s how the big boys do it most of the time.

The argument for the B is to split the difference in terms of IFR–add the second alternator to the package. The fact that the UI is common between the 420 and 430 will be helpful as well.

The argument for the A is of course value, particularly when you add altitude hold (I can’t imagine anybody not adding that option). Having been poring over the 430 manual, it’s hard to see being motivated to figure out another complex, sightly different unit, so I would guess that the 250XL will be demoted to being a Com radio and perhaps a pseudo-DME. I’d hate to be in a bunch of nasty weather with heavy traffic, have the 430 go up in smoke, and then try to figure out how to program the 250XL (since it will be your only source of Nav info).

I think you’re right about this. I have come to think recently that in the best of all possible worlds I would prefer a good Nav/Comm with glideslope (SL30? KX155A?) to the GNC250XL. That way if the GNS430 self-immolates, at least one could still let down via an ILS. I already have and will keep a Garmin 195, a superb handheld which has earned my great confidence, it’s never frozen up on me or lost a signal. Its HSI page is a great tool to have as well.

In the plane we’re getting while awaiting the sr20, we’ll have a GNS430, KX155, and a KN64 DME which remotes to the 430 and KX155. In addition we’ll have an interface between the 430 and the 195 (the latter with an external antenna), as well as a handheld Comm (Yaesu) with headset and external antenna adaptors. Along with the standby vacuum, I feel I have more than enough redundancy to handle any failure (single unit, vacuum, or electrical) under any IFR conditions I’m likely to encounter.

Unless CD replaces the GNC250XL with something else, we’ll be getting a “B” airplane, and perhaps later swap out the 420 for a GNS430.

BTW, the 430 may have a steep learning curve, but you should take a look at some of the earlier GPSs (like the KLN90B). The boxes are inherently complex, and they are somewhat hampered by the TSOs as to what they can do with the UI, but the Garmin is comparitively intuitive. For what it’s worth, the Garmin 295 handheld became quite easy to use with only about a half hour of goofing around with it, and it seems to share a lot of software with the 430.

I think you can’t have enough moving maps…and with dual 4x0s, you can always have one in map mode (with the numbers on the right side turned off to increase the map real estate) and one on the nav page (with fairly dense information) and have the ultimate split screen.

Just my humble opinion; hopefully this fall sometime I can speak more credibly after taking delivery…

8

I know this may soud stupid, but since I am new >to the general aviation world, I’d like to know >how long will this SUN & FUN last.

This is a weeklong fly-in and airshow in Lakeland Florida that is held every year around this time. Not quite as large as the Airventure show in Oshkosh, it still attracts alot of pilots and exhibitors.

Mark