Notes from AOPA

Guest Discussion
1

Cirrus had one of the largest booths at the Long Beach Convention Center, and it seemed that they and their neighbor Eclipse were drawing the most attention. Lots of people from Cirrus were on booth duty, including Alan Klapmeier. In comparison, the small Cessna booth had one person behind the counter handing out brochures. It all reminded me of Comdex (the premier computer industry show) back in in 1984, when high-energy startups dominated the floor.

Apparently a lot of business gets discussed here. The French diesel people were closeted in the Cirrus booth for a while. TheyÂ’re appaently well ahead of TCM, and we might possibly see diesel powered Cirri in Europe in the next year ot two. But it will probably be much longer before they appear in the US due to lack of a domestic support network.

TCM: although they’ve shipped a FADEC 550 to Cirrus, it will probably be “about a year” before they get around to the 360, unless they experience “some pressure from the OEMs.” Cirrus’ attitude, however, is that they don’t want to pressure their vendors. They believe that they’ll get better products, with better support, if they wait for competition to bring the vendors to their door.

ARNAV folks seem to turn a bit sour when asked about Cirrus. They were showing their engine monitoring software running on the ICDS 2000, along with the sensor installation kit. They say that the product is done, and the ball is now in Cirrus’ court. Cirrus says that it is still waiting for ARNAV to deliver. Maybe they’ll talk to each other at the show and find some common ground. ARNAV also said that they’ll announce another OEM installation for the ICDS2000 early next year, but “if he told me now he’d have to kill me”.

BRS: Robert Nelson, President of BRS, was at the Cirrus booth. TheyÂ’ve patented a new parachute material thatÂ’s 30% lighter than the current stuff. But theyÂ’ll need investment money to develop it, so lighter chutes wonÂ’t be appearing in Cirrus aircraft anytime soon.

The SR22 out at Long Beach airport attracted a lot of attention. Its longer wings with a more sculpted wingtip give it an even more graceful appearance than the 20. Its interior is a cut above the 20 also, even in this early version. The interior improvements, plus the all-electric option, might trickle down to the 20 someday, but Cirrus folks have developed a strong “make no promises” discipline.

There was a lot of ambivalence about “that website” (as some folks at Cirrus refer to this website). They see the occasional flare up of “downright false” information with a lot more alarm than many of us who are more accustomed to internet forum antics. I hope they come to see sr20.org as a valuable resource. Meanwhile, they are giving some thought to a “moderated” customer service forum on their own website.

2

Thanks for the report. Agree with the early-Comdex analogy about the industry in general – I think the Cirrus-Eclipse emergence of new GA designs is a lot like the shift from DEC/IBM/Univac mainframes/minis to PCs and Macs in the early 1980s.

Its interior is a cut above the 20 also, even in this early version. >

How exactly does the interior look different? Just fit-and-finish details, or something more systematic? Not looking for any reason to feel less-than-delighted with a SR20 when I get one, but curious about the next step the company’s taking. Thanks jf

3

Terrific report!

The only bad news about AOPA this year is the FAA bedwetter who suspended the “shoreline transition” over LAX for 90 days. Nice timing, feds.

Eclipse and Cirrus, along with Lancair and Pilatus, are the most exciting stories in GA. I recently took a right-seat ride in a Pilatus PC-12. What a thrill . . . better than a jet. I came away a big believer in single turbine engines. The PC-12 is the size of a King Air 200, yet it goes faster (270 ktas) on one engine! With all that size (six first class seats aft of cabin; a potty; 10,000+ pounds max gross) and speed, The PC-12 is flown down the final approach at . . . 80 knots! It rotates at 70 knots!

Turbines are the future. I think Cirrus should rip a page from the Eclipse playbook — that is, engage Williams to build a tiny turboprop. Use the same Williams core technology that’s going into the Eclipse 500 — turbofans the size of bongo drums, weighing only 80 pounds — but in Cirrus’s case, use only one fan and stick a propeller on it.

I don’t see why Cirrus couldn’t build a cabin-class six-placer that cruises 220 ktas on one Williams turboprop and sell the thing for $500K. Maybe a pressurized version for $600K. If an SR20 costs half a Commander 115, then why couldn’t a turboprop Cirrus cost about half of a Piper Meridian?

Go Cirrus!

Cirrus had one of the largest booths at the Long Beach Convention Center, and it seemed that they and their neighbor Eclipse were drawing the most attention. Lots of people from Cirrus were on booth duty, including Alan Klapmeier. In comparison, the small Cessna booth had one person behind the counter handing out brochures. It all reminded me of Comdex (the premier computer industry show) back in in 1984, when high-energy startups dominated the floor.

Apparently a lot of business gets discussed here. The French diesel people were closeted in the Cirrus booth for a while. TheyÂ’re appaently well ahead of TCM, and we might possibly see diesel powered Cirri in Europe in the next year ot two. But it will probably be much longer before they appear in the US due to lack of a domestic support network.

TCM: although they’ve shipped a FADEC 550 to Cirrus, it will probably be “about a year” before they get around to the 360, unless they experience “some pressure from the OEMs.” Cirrus’ attitude, however, is that they don’t want to pressure their vendors. They believe that they’ll get better products, with better support, if they wait for competition to bring the vendors to their door.

ARNAV folks seem to turn a bit sour when asked about Cirrus. They were showing their engine monitoring software running on the ICDS 2000, along with the sensor installation kit. They say that the product is done, and the ball is now in Cirrus’ court. Cirrus says that it is still waiting for ARNAV to deliver. Maybe they’ll talk to each other at the show and find some common ground. ARNAV also said that they’ll announce another OEM installation for the ICDS2000 early next year, but “if he told me now he’d have to kill me”.

BRS: Robert Nelson, President of BRS, was at the Cirrus booth. TheyÂ’ve patented a new parachute material thatÂ’s 30% lighter than the current stuff. But theyÂ’ll need investment money to develop it, so lighter chutes wonÂ’t be appearing in Cirrus aircraft anytime soon.

The SR22 out at Long Beach airport attracted a lot of attention. Its longer wings with a more sculpted wingtip give it an even more graceful appearance than the 20. Its interior is a cut above the 20 also, even in this early version. The interior improvements, plus the all-electric option, might trickle down to the 20 someday, but Cirrus folks have developed a strong “make no promises” discipline.

There was a lot of ambivalence about “that website” (as some folks at Cirrus refer to this website). They see the occasional flare up of “downright false” information with a lot more alarm than many of us who are more accustomed to internet forum antics. I hope they come to see sr20.org as a valuable resource. Meanwhile, they are giving some thought to a “moderated” customer service forum on their own website.

4

The SR22 out at Long Beach airport attracted a lot of attention. Its longer wings with a more sculpted wingtip give it an even more graceful appearance than the 20. Its interior is a cut above the 20 also, even in this early version. The interior improvements, plus the all-electric option, might trickle down to the 20 someday, but Cirrus folks have developed a strong “make no promises” discipline.

The differences I noticed were:

Longer wings which we all know about. These are not obvious (to me) from a distance, but are quite clear when you’re up close and personal. Since I have no chance at a hangar, it’s of no operational consequence to me!

One exhaust stack instead of two. The fellow at the Cirrus booth whom I asked about it–can’t recall the name–said the exhaust is indeed still a “tuned” exhaust, but I rather think this should be verified with Ian by anyone who cares enough to ask.

Landing light in the cowl, not in the inlet. Doesn’t have the droopy duct-tape eyelid either. Hurray!

The cowling didn’t seem significantly larger than the SR20’s which surprised me as it accomodates an engine with 50% greater displacement. I may be wrong about this though.

Two small strakes just forward of the wing roots–one on each side. The same guy at the booth indicated that at near-stall angles of attack they provide just enough lift to get the stall speed below 60. Interesting (to me anway, I don’t know a whole lot about such subtleties). Hey, do I win some chocolate for being the only one to notice this? :slight_smile:

The interior was overall somewhat more aesthetically pleasing, especially to my wife Tina, but I honestly can’t nail down the specifics that made it so other than the upholstery design. Perhaps it was my subconscious at work trying to justify the extra $15K which I sent in to convert. Otherwise it seemed to be vintage Cirrus which is just fine by me.

There was a lot of ambivalence about “that website” (as some folks at Cirrus refer to this website). They see the occasional flare up of “downright false” information with a lot more alarm than many of us who are more accustomed to internet forum antics. I hope they come to see sr20.org as a valuable resource. Meanwhile, they are giving some thought to a “moderated” customer service forum on their own website.

I really enjoyed the chance to meet some Cirrus people for the first time whom I had only spoken with on the phone or just heard about: Sherri Reynolds, Bruce Gunter, and Dale K. They were friendly and courteous to a fault, and I’m looking forward to a factory tour early next year.

Humorous aside: Ian B. asked me how my airplane was doing. I replied that it was fine other than that it was beginning to look like I might have to replace my transponder or encoder as it was giving funny altitudes to ATC now and then. He was very concerned and asked if Mike Busch was doing something about it already. I chuckled and replied that while I was very impressed with what I’d heard about CD’s customer service, I didn’t think that Mike Busch would have the time to help me out with my 260se/stol’s transponder! We both had a good laugh about this, and I got an added appreciation for what it must be like to attend one of these booths and chat up hundreds of people daily for three days straight!

Dale himself commented to me that he appreciated the good & useful aspects of this website, although he did ackowledge he has to now and then suppress the urge to respond to something he sees which he knows to be false or misleading. I think by now CD folks all understand the sociology of such forums as this which are more like people spouting off at a cocktail party than writing considered opinions for print publication.

5

I guess you mean Renault-Morane. Officially, the certification for their engines is still expected for the end of this year. Which certification (JAR,FAR,…) I don’t know.

With regard to distribution: it’s a sister cmpany of Socata.

Apparently a lot of business gets discussed here. The French diesel people were closeted in the Cirrus booth for a while. They?re appaently well ahead of TCM, and we might possibly see diesel powered Cirri in Europe in the next year ot two. But it will probably be much longer before they appear in the US due to lack of a domestic support network.

6

There was a lot of ambivalence about “that website” (as some folks at Cirrus refer to this website). They see the occasional flare up of “downright false” information with a lot more alarm than many of us who are more accustomed to internet forum antics. I hope they come to see sr20.org as a valuable resource. Meanwhile, they are giving some thought to a “moderated” customer service forum on their own website.

I would welcome a Cirrus moderated forum on their own website. Any clarification of misconceptions on our part by Cirrus is good for everyone.

7

Cirrus had one of the largest booths at the Long Beach Convention Center, and it seemed that they and their neighbor Eclipse were drawing the most attention. Lots of people from Cirrus were on booth duty, including Alan Klapmeier. In comparison, the small Cessna booth had one person behind the counter handing out brochures. It all reminded me of Comdex (the premier computer industry show) back in in 1984, when high-energy startups dominated the floor.

Apparently a lot of business gets discussed here. The French diesel people were closeted in the Cirrus booth for a while. TheyÂ’re appaently well ahead of TCM, and we might possibly see diesel powered Cirri in Europe in the next year ot two. But it will probably be much longer before they appear in the US due to lack of a domestic support network.

TCM: although they’ve shipped a FADEC 550 to Cirrus, it will probably be “about a year” before they get around to the 360, unless they experience “some pressure from the OEMs.” Cirrus’ attitude, however, is that they don’t want to pressure their vendors. They believe that they’ll get better products, with better support, if they wait for competition to bring the vendors to their door.

ARNAV folks seem to turn a bit sour when asked about Cirrus. They were showing their engine monitoring software running on the ICDS 2000, along with the sensor installation kit. They say that the product is done, and the ball is now in Cirrus’ court. Cirrus says that it is still waiting for ARNAV to deliver. Maybe they’ll talk to each other at the show and find some common ground. ARNAV also said that they’ll announce another OEM installation for the ICDS2000 early next year, but “if he told me now he’d have to kill me”.

BRS: Robert Nelson, President of BRS, was at the Cirrus booth. TheyÂ’ve patented a new parachute material thatÂ’s 30% lighter than the current stuff. But theyÂ’ll need investment money to develop it, so lighter chutes wonÂ’t be appearing in Cirrus aircraft anytime soon.

The SR22 out at Long Beach airport attracted a lot of attention. Its longer wings with a more sculpted wingtip give it an even more graceful appearance than the 20. Its interior is a cut above the 20 also, even in this early version. The interior improvements, plus the all-electric option, might trickle down to the 20 someday, but Cirrus folks have developed a strong “make no promises” discipline.

There was a lot of ambivalence about “that website” (as some folks at Cirrus refer to this website). They see the occasional flare up of “downright false” information with a lot more alarm than many of us who are more accustomed to internet forum antics. I hope they come to see sr20.org as a valuable resource. Meanwhile, they are giving some thought to a “moderated” customer service forum on their own website.

I also found the ARNAV people to be very defensive when questioned about the installation of their product in the Cirrus. I enjoyed seeing the flying SR22 but was disapointed in the installation of the Sandel 3308. The SR20 and SR22 have such great looking panels,it seems a shame to have an installation that looks “after-market.” It would be nice if Cirrus could fiqure out an installation that would flush mount the Sandel to make it appear original equipment. After years of flying rental planes with lots of retrofitted equipment, I’m looking forward to my new SR22

8

Gary Black pointed out the beefier seats, and the panel bolsters are one-piece seemless units (as opposed to the two piece seemed affairs in the 20). I think there were other details, but I didn’t have my camera. All in all, a little more car-like.

Not a reason to upgrade, or to feel any less delighted about the 20; just a little help in the rationalization department if you’ve already spent the money. Price / performance will be the deciding factor, and for my taste, the 20 has a sweeter spot in the design envelope. (That’s another bit of rationalization on the other side, of course.)

How exactly does the interior look different? Just fit-and-finish details, or something more systematic? Not looking for any reason to feel less-than-delighted with a SR20 when I get one, but curious about the next step the company’s taking. Thanks jf

9

Longer wings which we all know about. These are not obvious (to me) from a distance, but are quite clear when you’re up close and personal. Since I have no chance at a hangar, it’s of no operational consequence to me!

It looks like the extra wingspan is all in the

wingtips. It’s possible that the wing proper shares parts between the '20 & '22. Very clever.

Two small strakes just forward of the wing roots–one on each side. The same guy at the booth indicated that at near-stall angles of attack they provide just enough lift to get the stall speed below 60 …

Observant of you to notice that, Kevin. Maybe we should dub them “canardlets”, ala the 260se. As you probably already know, 60 kts is a magic stall speed for certification purposes.

One small difference from the specifications is that the track (width) of the main landing gear is 10.6 feet on the '22 vs. 11.1 feet on the '20. My theory is that, because of the wing dihedral, this provides the extra inch of ground clearance that the 78-in prop on the SR22 needs.

-Mike

10

The cowling didn’t seem significantly larger than the SR20’s which surprised me as it accomodates an engine with 50% greater displacement. I may be wrong about this though.

I was told that it was actually a little shorter than the SR20, due to the removal of the primary and backup vacuum systems. It’s certainly more crowded under there, based on my brief peek.

11

It looks like the extra wingspan is all in the

wingtips. It’s possible that the wing proper shares parts between the '20 & '22. Very clever.

I’m not so sure about this. I believe they were experimenting with different wing tips (and cowlings) on the prototype that was at AOPA. You should not take that airplane as the final '22.

Wait and see what the first conforming aircraft looks like when that is released. I think the wings may be a tiny bit different. In any case, we’ll all know soon enough.