&quotEnhanced&quot class B

Just spoke with flight service. Briefer advised “just off presses” enhanced “B” extends 30 NM from airport (mode “C” vail) not just shelves.

myers

Just spoke with flight service. Briefer advised “just off presses” enhanced “B” extends 30 NM from airport (mode “C” vail) not just shelves.

myers

30 Miles out, surface to infinity IFR only.

Also, the ban on VFR training extends to part 91 pilots as well. No pattern work at all permitted at my Class D airport and I’m pretty sure they don’t want training at uncontrolled airports either. Flight Service indicated it was up to the individual controling authority but after a call to the control tower the answer was point to point VFR only.

Hey at least I’m flying again.

Just spoke with flight service. Briefer advised “just off presses” enhanced “B” extends 30 NM from airport (mode “C” vail) not just shelves.

The FAA NOTAM quoted on the AOPA web site says this:

NOTE: FOR THE PURPOSES OF THIS NOTAM, “ENHANCED CLASS B AIRSPACE” IS DEFINED AS THAT AIRSPACE WITHIN THE EXTREME LATERAL LIMIT OF CLASS B AIRPACE FROM SURFACE TO INFINITY (I.E. SUCH OPERATIONS ARE NOT AUTHORIZED WITHIN, BELOW, OR ABOVE CLASS B AIRSPACE):

This seems to conflict with what the briefer said. Be careful. Briefers have been misinformed in other instances over the last week.

John Renwick

I have been flying VFR 135 all week and have had a different experience with the same briefers, center, and approach controllers each day. I think they are confused about what to allow as well, and just tell me I can’t do something just to cover there butt. Last night I was suprised to hear a controller tell me radar services terminatedand to change to advisory frequency. I was still 20 miles away from the uncontrolled airport I was going to and right next to an active restricted area the entire rest of the way. I asked him if what he just said was ok and he said sure. Then this morning in the same area, flying VFR, another controller told me that what he did was wrong. Every authority I talk to tells me a different story each day so I just make sure to ask alot of questions so at least it is on tape what I am asking to do and what they are allowing me to do.

Just spoke with flight service. Briefer advised “just off presses” enhanced “B” extends 30 NM from airport (mode “C” vail) not just shelves.

myers

30 Miles out, surface to infinity IFR only.

Also, the ban on VFR training extends to part 91 pilots as well. No pattern work at all permitted at my Class D airport and I’m pretty sure they don’t want training at uncontrolled airports either. Flight Service indicated it was up to the individual controling authority but after a call to the control tower the answer was point to point VFR only.

Hey at least I’m flying again.

I have been flying VFR 135 all week and have had a different experience with the same briefers, center, and approach controllers each day. I think they are confused about what to allow as well, and just tell me I can’t do something just to cover there butt. Last night I was suprised to hear a controller tell me radar services terminatedand to change to advisory frequency. I was still 20 miles away from the uncontrolled airport I was going to and right next to an active restricted area the entire rest of the way. I asked him if what he just said was ok and he said sure. Then this morning in the same area, flying VFR, another controller told me that what he did was wrong. Every authority I talk to tells me a different story each day so I just make sure to ask alot of questions so at least it is on tape what I am asking to do and what they are allowing me to do.

Just spoke with flight service. Briefer advised “just off presses” enhanced “B” extends 30 NM from airport (mode “C” vail) not just shelves.

myers

30 Miles out, surface to infinity IFR only.

Also, the ban on VFR training extends to part 91 pilots as well. No pattern work at all permitted at my Class D airport and I’m pretty sure they don’t want training at uncontrolled airports either. Flight Service indicated it was up to the individual controling authority but after a call to the control tower the answer was point to point VFR only.

Hey at least I’m flying again.

Last night I was suprised to hear a controller tell me radar services terminatedand to change to advisory frequency. I was still 20 miles away from the uncontrolled airport I was going to and right next to an active restricted area the entire rest of the way. I asked him if what he just said was ok and he said sure. Then this morning in the same area, flying VFR, another controller told me that what he did was wrong.

I’m confused, from your note, I interpret that you were IFR on the first flight. Terminating radar services does NOT terminate IFR nor may you change your beacon code. Did he clear you for some aproach (e.g. visual) (legal) or did he cancel IFR with you (now illegal)?

Last night (9/19) I was told around 10pm by Seattle Center that the rules had just changed, to cancel IFR and squawk VFR for my approach to an uncontrolled field.

-Curt

(in day 11 of Wings Aloft’s 14 day IFR course, and definitely winging it to keep on schedule!)

I was VFR both flights but the first flight the controller let me squawk 1200 and the other time he made me keep the code all the way to the ground.

Last night I was suprised to hear a controller tell me radar services terminatedand to change to advisory frequency. I was still 20 miles away from the uncontrolled airport I was going to and right next to an active restricted area the entire rest of the way. I asked him if what he just said was ok and he said sure. Then this morning in the same area, flying VFR, another controller told me that what he did was wrong.

I’m confused, from your note, I interpret that you were IFR on the first flight. Terminating radar services does NOT terminate IFR nor may you change your beacon code. Did he clear you for some aproach (e.g. visual) (legal) or did he cancel IFR with you (now illegal)?

AOPA Air Safety Foundation gets answers on flight training

Update: 9/21/01 11:15:03 AM, ET — The AOPA Air Safety Foundation has gotten clear definitions of what flight training activities are currently permitted. While this is expected to change

today, at the moment, VFR flight training activities are prohibited. That means primary flight instruction with student pilots is prohibited, and VFR flight training in pursuit of a certificate or rating is prohibited.

However, FAA has confirmed to ASF that proficiency and currency flights by certificated pilots

are permitted, outside of enhanced Class B airspace and TFRs. That means, for example,

touch-and-goes, pattern work, and maneuvers in the practice area are permitted for certificated

pilots (pilots with a Recreational, Private, Commercial or ATP certificate). Instrument proficiency checks and flight reviews are permitted. Any operations conducted for proficiency or currency as required by the FARs are permitted. Instrument flight training on an instrument flight plan and clearance is permitted.

Pilots are reminded, though, that VFR flight is still prohibited within enhanced Class B airspace

and in temporary flight restrictions (TFR) areas.

I agree with John. My latest read of the notam (at least the one I’ve been able to see on the web) makes no mention of 30 nm or the mode C veil.

When I saw Phil Boyer speak last night (in Columbus, OH), he said the “authorities” wanted to use the mode C line but were talked out of it.

If a FSS briefer told me that, I’d be tempted to ask for his/her name and to speak with his/her supervisor.

An up-to-date, EAA-approved interpretation of the NOTAM is available at the EAA’s web site (http://www.eaa.org/click here). Nothing in the NOTAM restricts VFR flight to be what Brig calls “point to point” (although a physicist will tell you that all motion is “point to point”).

I agree with Glenn and John that statements made by FSS briefers during this confusing time should be reviewed with a critical eye. If a briefer tells you something that conflicts with your reading of the NOTAM, ask him or her to quote you the specific statement in the NOTAM that they’re using as their authority. Ask for the NOTAM number as well.

At the risk of temporarily turning this list into a forum on FAA attempts to grab more airspace (and IMHO every aviation community needs to take an interest in this):

The FAA is working on a proposal to expand Minneapolis (MSP) Class B airspace out to 30NM instead of 20. See details at http://www.soarmn.com/class_b_expansion.htm. In the course of hearings on this last winter, it came out that the FAA’s current standard profile for new Class B airspace has a 30NM radius. It appeared that they require this to be the starting point for any new Class B or expansion proposals, and any deviation from the profile has to be supported by somebody’s real need. So we can expect to see more 60-mile-wide Class Bs in the future; maybe some FAA folks have already adoped this idea, even if the actual airspaces haven’t caught up with it yet. :frowning:

John (J3 grounded in Minneapolis, Yankee Flying Club SR20, N2014Y, not the one that crashed)

(although a physicist will tell you that all motion is “point to point”).

I’ve been occasionally told that a lot of my motion is “pointless.”

An up-to-date, EAA-approved interpretation of the NOTAM is available at the EAA’s web site (http://www.eaa.org/click here). Nothing in the NOTAM restricts VFR flight to be what Brig calls “point to point” (although a physicist will tell you that all motion is “point to point”).

The point I was trying to make was that the controller pointedly disagreed with the current NOTAM and suggested that point to point VFR (his words not mine) was the point of the current NOTAM. Decided not to press the point with him!

BTW Roger, thanks for the physics lesson. While some folks might consider your point about all motion being point to point as being…well pointless, I certainly got the point:)

Hi Brig,

Thanks for the “pointed” message!

The fact that an FAA employee disagreed with the current NOTAM, and was unclear about the NOTAM’s purpose, just shows how poorly-conceved the NOTAM is…

Cheers,

Roger