See link below for the preliminary accident report at Ft Lauderdale Executive Airport re: Cirrus chute pull.
http://www.ntsb.gov/ntsb/brief.asp?ev_id=20040426X00510&key=1
Dennis: A real possibility is water introduced into the static port during washing.
Make sure the pitot and static ports are taped up before washing, and removed immediately after. I use black duct tape, florescent orange would be even better.
Does the plane have a water clear button? My Piper has a button on the floor that opens the system at a low point, and permits water to drain, and/or blow out. If I get a funny airspeed, alt or climb, I press that button, as well as pitot heat/alt source, as may be required.
I’m a bit vague on my Cirrus pitot static plumbing…based on the information in the report, would activation of the alternate static source have resolved the problem? Can we tell?
I posted a picture of my Fast Eddie Static Port Water Incursion Prevention Devices some time ago.
I actually used them last Saturday while washing the plane. They may be extraneous when my canopy cover is on (it covers the ports.) I do stick them on on those occasions when I’m too lazy to throw the cover on.
In reply to:
Dennis: A real possibility is water introduced into the static port during washing.
Make sure the pitot and static ports are taped up before washing, and removed immediately after. I use black duct tape, florescent orange would be even better.
Word I got was the water tested as well water but didn’t match the wash water used there.
In reply to:
…while washing the plane.
Now why would you want to wash the plane? I’ve never done that - clean it, polish it, etc., sure… but never wash it with (ugh) water!
- Mike.
In reply to:
Now why would you want to wash the plane? I’ve never done that - clean it, polish it, etc., sure… but never wash it with (ugh) water!
- Mike.
what was it you said you used? Wash/Wax all or something wasn’t it?
The SC just did a great job cleaning mine, I’m now going to try to keep it that way.
In reply to:
Now why would you want to wash the plane?
Grasshopper,
It’s a Zen thing - soap goes on, soap comes off…
When the student is ready, the path will become clear.
OOOmmmmmmmmm…
In reply to:
Does the plane have a water clear button?
No. In fact, I’ve actually never seen one.
As I’ve said before, my Tiger would get bubbles of water into the static line - you could see them in erratic a/s, vsi and altimeter readings. In the Tiger there was a “t” fitting at a low point under the rear seat where you could drain the water out.
No, there is no “clear” button but the Cirrus definitely has alternate static source readily available.
In general, I have not found that a little water cuases major problems. Little blips and jumps in the altimeter and VS but I have never found this to cuse major disruption of the static system. Maybe I have just been lucky.
I used to fly a Piper that would have airspeed fluctuations every time it rained from water ramming into the pitot tube. But, again, it always cleared after a few seconds to a minute.
Maybe it’s my gut getting in the way but I can’t reach the ALT STATIC valve with the seatbelt on. I’ve taken to using my foot.
Considering the situation when the ALT STATIC port would be bneede (IMC) it doesn’t seem like safe ergonomics to locate it in the footwell of the cockpit. Spatial disorientation is more than likely after bending way down and lowering your head to open the valve, especially in a situtation when the static port is blocked.
It would seem wiser to locate the valve immeditely under the panel bolster or on the center console with a guard over it.
Something for Cirrus to think about in the continued evolution of this great plane.
The alternate static source valve is near the instruments, so unless water was
all the way up the line, the alternate static source valve probably would help.
Seems like he definitely should have tried the alternate.
What confuses me also is that the report indicates that the attitude indicator
was not in agreement with the turn coordinator… these are electrical systems,
with no relationship, that I know of, to the pitot static system. I have had this
happen to me once in IMC, turned out the turn coordinator had failed… luckily I had
my trusty Garmin 196 with me and turned on, so I quickly ruled out the attitude
indicator. But this happening at the same time as a pitot static problem sounds very
very strange.
Michael
While it is easy to second guess Jeff’s choices, I’ll just repeat what he said at Sun N Fun, something like: Guys - I was IMC at 700 feet - not a great place to be troubleshooting.
So the big question is - you are IMC at 700 feet, a bunch of your instruments are going crazy in a way you have never seen or simulated. Do you start troubleshooting and run the risk of losing the aircraft at low altitude and buying the farm, or do you pull the red handle? Jeff apparently had thought long and hard about this choice BEFORE the event, and established his critical decision making parameters. I applaud him for how he prepared. And I thank him for challenging my thinking about how I would handle a similar scenario.
Tom
Tom–right on—it really helps to have thought through these potential scenarios PRIOR to them actually happenning and develop “outs”. Fortunately for the Cirrus jockeys, there is the parachute. How many other poor guys have had this happen to them and had to work on the problem as they augered in. I would like to see the chute in as many GA planes as possible.
S–t happens so why not use this new and PROVEN technology to get you out of harms way. This is not an excuse for poor judgement, but it will keep you alive to help determine if it was. Thanks for Cirrus for ushering in this new technology!!!
In reply to:
While it is easy to second guess Jeff’s choices, I’ll just repeat what he said at Sun N Fun, something like: Guys - I was IMC at 700 feet - not a great place to be troubleshooting.
So the big question is - you are IMC at 700 feet, a bunch of your instruments are going crazy in a way you have never seen or simulated. Do you start troubleshooting and run the risk of losing the aircraft at low altitude and buying the farm, or do you pull the red handle? Jeff apparently had thought long and hard about this choice BEFORE the event, and established his critical decision making parameters. I applaud him for how he prepared. And I thank him for challenging my thinking about how I would handle a similar scenario.
Tom
I will second your opinion, Tom. I have thought about being in this scenario a hundred times. You are low in IMC with maybe 5-7 seconds to make a decision as to whether you can make the plane go where you want or not. You have instrument(s) acting abnormally and you have to figure out which one(s) are wrong, within 5 seconds. I have an appreciation for this, because two years ago, all of my pitot static instruments went wacky on me at about 1,500’ AGL in low IMC. Let me tell you, it gets your attention. So, it just isn’t fair to second guess someone’s actions under those circumstances. You can barely do one good scan of the panel in 5 seconds, much less make a determination of what is malfunctioning and what isn’t.
Another way to prepare, is to practice various instrument failure modes and
scenarios. Failed pitot instruments is a very common scenario to practice and
the first thing you’re taught to do is switch to the alternate static source. If you
haven’t practiced this or thought about this in awhile, yes, when things start to
go wrong and its difficult to think absolutely clearly, its difficult to debug, but thats
where the training and practice kick-in.
One suggestion is to make a list of various avionics failure modes and give it
to your flight instructor, go out on a flight and have him give you these failure
modes randomly (simulated) and practice what to do in each case.
I believe talking about what could have been done better and suggestions for
training to do so, rather than being called ‘second guessing’ and being a bad thing,
are in fact a good thing and a healthy function of this forum.
I’m glad he’s safe though, by whatever means.
Michael
I realize this is a very personal decision for every pilot, but after a few IFR departures in ceilings below 500 feet, I just simply don’t do them anymore. In my experience, 500 foot ceilings are relatively rare, and rarer still when they don’t climb about 1000 within a few hours. I usually have another cup of coffee and wait for the ceiling to rise.
In reply to:
I realize this is a very personal decision for every pilot, but after a few IFR departures in ceilings below 500 feet, I just simply don’t do them anymore. In my experience, 500 foot ceilings are relatively rare, and rarer still when they don’t climb about 1000 within a few hours…
Depends on where you live. Low ceilings can linger for days in the N GA mountains. It’s often clear 50 to 100 miles to the south, and the top of the overcast is often 3,000’ or so.
So, there’s some added risk if things go wrong right after takeoff. As far as losing the engine, that would be serious in or out of the clouds. For the two minutes or so climbing through the layer, there’s some added risk compared to a VFR day, but flying actual IFR always entails some small additional risk.
Not recommending departures into low ceilings to anyone - I just think a lot of pilots do it on a regular basis with no ill effects
In reply to:
Failed pitot instruments is a very common scenario to practice and
the first thing you’re taught to do is switch to the alternate static source. If you haven’t practiced this or thought about this in awhile, yes, when things start to go wrong and its difficult to think absolutely clearly, its difficult to debug, but thats where the training and practice kick-in.
As a matter of fact, I tried practicing this last weekend. I was fumbling for a number of seconds (hunched down, unable to see any instruments) until I realized I was trying to turn the alt-static knob in the wrong direction. Don’t think I’d have had the time at 700’ if I hadn’t established reference by then.
On the otherhand, I’ve practiced under the hood keeping the plane straight using the Garmin NAV1 screen TRK indicator (counting up, bank left, counting down bank right). I haven’t tried doing it either under the Radomsky blanket or using the position screen ALT readout to keep pitch. That’s on the list for upcoming practice.