I’m wavering between a ‘membership’ with one of the fractional ownership companies. OurPlane and AirShares. Here are my thoughts, please respond and help me decide.
I’d very much like to do a straight partnership in a Cirrus SR22 in the TampaBay area, if I could only find 2 o3 3 worthy partners.
The main difference of ourplane and airshares is the ownership/use license. OurPlane offers a ‘use license’ which would theoretically shelter me from liability if another partner would say crash into a school bus. AirShares offers straight ownership, with each of the 8 owners actually on title. No shelter from liability. Although my attorney, like most attorneys always thinks of doom and gloom first, and really liked the use license for Ourplane. I’m also concerned that if Ourplane were to go out of business, I’d have nothing. If airshares went out of business, I’d at least be 1 of 8 actually on title to the plane. I have to weigh the possibilities of crash/co. going out of business. I think I’ll accept the liability as I figure the chances are 1 in a 1000 for a crash, and then hopefully the plaintiff will go after deeper pockets than mine first. One of the fractional companies going out of business might be more like 50/50. I’d prefer Airshares for this reason.
The OurPlane salesman locally is a buddy. I’ve been assured that if for some reason I had to leave the program early, he’d help facilitate the sale of my share. But, how long can my buddy stay with them…if he’s having a hard time selling the partnership.
I want the plane 'yesterday." Airshares promises a plane sooner than OurPlane. I just don’t want to wait around.
Call me the generalizer…but every Candian I’ve ever met and had contact with here in Florida just ‘didn’t get it.’ My theory is that their brains are frozen. I’m concerned with having any dealings with a Canadian. The owner/CEO of Ourplane is from Canada.
My observation (from afar) is that Airshares has been quite successful while Ourplane has struggled. You might ask Paul Platt about his experience w/Airshares
I’m wavering between a ‘membership’ with one of the fractional ownership companies. OurPlane and AirShares. Here are my thoughts, please respond and help me decide.
I’d very much like to do a straight partnership in a Cirrus SR22 in the TampaBay area, if I could only find 2 o3 3 worthy partners.
The main difference of ourplane and airshares is the ownership/use license. OurPlane offers a ‘use license’ which would theoretically shelter me from liability if another partner would say crash into a school bus. AirShares offers straight ownership, with each of the 8 owners actually on title. No shelter from liability. Although my attorney, like most attorneys always thinks of doom and gloom first, and really liked the use license for Ourplane. I’m also concerned that if Ourplane were to go out of business, I’d have nothing. If airshares went out of business, I’d at least be 1 of 8 actually on title to the plane. I have to weigh the possibilities of crash/co. going out of business. I think I’ll accept the liability as I figure the chances are 1 in a 1000 for a crash, and then hopefully the plaintiff will go after deeper pockets than mine first. One of the fractional companies going out of business might be more like 50/50. I’d prefer Airshares for this reason.
The OurPlane salesman locally is a buddy. I’ve been assured that if for some reason I had to leave the program early, he’d help facilitate the sale of my share. But, how long can my buddy stay with them…if he’s having a hard time selling the partnership.
I want the plane 'yesterday." Airshares promises a plane sooner than OurPlane. I just don’t want to wait around.
Call me the generalizer…but every Candian I’ve ever met and had contact with here in Florida just ‘didn’t get it.’ My theory is that their brains are frozen. I’m concerned with having any dealings with a Canadian. The owner/CEO of Ourplane is from Canada.
Can anyone offer some insight? I need help.
Alan
Just a couple of additional thoughts.
#3. As we discussed, the AirShares contract includes a guaranteed buyback clause at appraised value of the aircraft less a brokerage fee. However, you can always try to sell your share first.
#4. Consistent with AirShares business model, we’ll deliver the first aircraft to Tampa prior to having the first Owner (unless somebody moves REALLY quickly). A local Tampa CSIP CFI is picking up a plane week 10/17.
One additional difference between the programs is availability. AirShares only does fractionals on SR20s and SR22s in markets where we can have 5-10 identical aircraft available to Owners within the first 3 years; that has a huge impact on availability. I’m sure some of our Owners will comment on their experience. Our two oldest markets, Atllanta and NY, have 10+ aircraft in both. In the DC market (we and OurPlane both started in February 2005), we had two aircraft on the ground by May. We contracted for the second aircraft before the original bird was even 50% sold in order to ensure availability.
I use Airshares in the DC area. They have two GTS here and I love the plane. Agree with your points and risk analysis. In the end; you need to think very hard about what type of flying you are going to do. How many hours a year. You also need to think about whether the use of the fleet in other parts of the counrty is important to you. Both programs are not cheep. You are paying someone to take care of all the maintenance and ownership issues. If all you want is a brand new aircraft and to fly 50-150 hours a year, it is a pretty good way to do it. I know I could not afford a new aircraft and I wanted to fly a Cirrus GTS, so this was the best way. I went with Airshares because they had the aircraft wheren/when I wanted it.
If’n a nose-picking, snot-eating, beer-can-in-a-paper-bag, no helmet or seatbelt wearing, central-Floridian bubba wants the opinion of a frozen brained Canadian…[;)]
I had an OurPlane “license”.
I love the concept of shared ownership if you are not the type that absolutely has to have their own plane at any time of the day or night no matter what. I’m not.
The availabilty issue was not a problem with OurPlane and I flew about 50-70 hours per year.
All of the concerns you expressed with OurPlane are valid and real, especially your spidey sense. Don’t lump us all with Graham. He’s got a good idea just is going about it way differently than I or anyone else I know would.
Both Gary and I had terrible experiences attempting to sell our “licenses” to a third party when we wanted out.
OurPlane knew for months that we were going to sell and we offered them the opportunity to sell our licenses. We discovered that as they had their own higher priced liceses to sell that they did not offer our liceses to several people we spoke to that were in the market… including the guy we ultimately sold one of ours to.
In reality of course they would sell their own licenses before they’d sell yours.
But i nour expereince, OurPlane did a great deal to make it very difficult to sell our licenses. Essentially, Graham insisted upon terms not in our original agreement and insisted that the new “owner” be bound by updated and more restricted conditions etc.
He kept trying to buy our interest for $4,000 to get it over with. At the time he was selling the same licesne for $28,000. Understand that this was not us asking us to honour a guaranteed buy back, we offered it to him for $20,000 - the same price we put it on the market for and we ultiimately sold it for. He jsut tried us on for size!
Many many promises and representatons were not fulfilled including new aircraft launches and other timetables.
So, I’m very impressed and surprised that they have not announced a “launch” and immediate delivery of an SR22 to your airport. That used to be more common.
There is MUCH more and I don’t fell like going into it (yet again) but suffice to say that I would never ever do any business with Graham Casson nor OurPlane ever again.
I have names of several other unhappy past local OurPlane clients that had similar experiences in their dealing with OurPlane including insight from several former employees.
Finally, I have just learned that Graham has begun renting out block time in the local SR20 to a pilot for $275 an hour.
No buy-in or monthly fee required.
I’m not sure how busy that plane is but if I were still a license holder I’d be upset that anyone with a chequebook can rent “my” plane.
In addition to the possibility that the outsider might be using it at the very time I might want to, it goes directly against the spirit and letter of the “Exclusive” use licenses OurPlane sells their entire program on.
But that is not surprising to me.
I have no direct expereince with AirShares but from every indication, observation and direct contact I’ve ever had with their owners I understand AirShares operates on a completely different basis in every way.
Ultimately I’d suggest you use the SEARCH button at the top of the page and enter “Our*” and read up on past posts as it has been discussed before. Then do the same for “Airshares”
I’d rather a company under promise and over deliver than over promse and under deliver.
As for whewre we are today, Gary and I took a third guy (Chris) in and share an SR22. We each put about 100-120 hours on each year and only very rarely have any scheduling conflicts. We amicably sort them out if someone’s mission is more urgent than others.
Think of Chip and Dale. "After you!.. No after YOU! No , I insist… " and you’ll have a good partnership.
Another thing to condsider is the management/maintenance of your plane. If you have owned aircraft before and are so inclined you may do well maintaining your own ship. If not, then the Airshares idea is more attractive.
And DO NOT underestimate the value of being on title. You’re right, if OUrPlane uses your buy in money for say operating expenses and finances or otherwise encumbers the aircraft, you will become jsut another creditor. With AIrshares you ARE the first creditor in line with the security of fiberglass and aluminum!
Just my frozen Canadian brain farts but I hope it helps, bubba!
I’ve been an owner with Airshares in the New York area since May of 2003. I honestly cannot say a bad thing about these guys. They have literally bent over backwards to accommodate me, and have always done exactly what they said they would do.
A good example is how Airshares added aircraft when new owners came on. Since I was an early adopter (they were new in the area then), I was concerned that when there were 8 owners, it would be difficult to schedule time in the aircraft. Kevin from Airshares assured me that they would add aircraft ahead of 8 owners per plane, and that they would add aircraft if scheduling ever became a chronic problem. Sure enough, when we got to about 9 or 10 owners in 2 SR-22’s, they added a third. Again, when scheduling got tight towards the end of last summer, the original plan was to add aircraft the following season, since the summer was almost over (that way, they wouldn’t have to carry the additional plane over the winter). But, as scheduling got worse, they decided to add another aircraft immediately.
On the Ourplane side, the only experience I have is that they were trying to sell shares in an airplane in the NY area before the aircraft was here. There’s nothing wrong with that, but it seems like they needed to sell shares first, whereas airshares was putting airplanes into service prior to any owners being signed up.
Lastly, I personally would avoid partnerships with more than 2 people. It becomes too much of a hassle, and either one of the programs discussed here take the hassle out of aircraft ownership. I owned 2 airplanes prior to being in Airshares (including one in partnership with a friend), and when I got that $12,000 annual on my Saratoga, I knew it was time to stop owning. Thankfully, Airshares showed up at the right time. Also, if they’re as successful in Tampa as they are here, there will be many aircraft, which will make scheduling that much better.
I’m wavering between a ‘membership’ with one of the fractional ownership companies. OurPlane and AirShares. Here are my thoughts, please respond and help me decide.
I’d very much like to do a straight partnership in a Cirrus SR22 in the TampaBay area, if I could only find 2 o3 3 worthy partners.
The main difference of ourplane and airshares is the ownership/use license. OurPlane offers a ‘use license’ which would theoretically shelter me from liability if another partner would say crash into a school bus. AirShares offers straight ownership, with each of the 8 owners actually on title. No shelter from liability. Although my attorney, like most attorneys always thinks of doom and gloom first, and really liked the use license for Ourplane. I’m also concerned that if Ourplane were to go out of business, I’d have nothing. If airshares went out of business, I’d at least be 1 of 8 actually on title to the plane. I have to weigh the possibilities of crash/co. going out of business. I think I’ll accept the liability as I figure the chances are 1 in a 1000 for a crash, and then hopefully the plaintiff will go after deeper pockets than mine first. One of the fractional companies going out of business might be more like 50/50. I’d prefer Airshares for this reason.
The OurPlane salesman locally is a buddy. I’ve been assured that if for some reason I had to leave the program early, he’d help facilitate the sale of my share. But, how long can my buddy stay with them…if he’s having a hard time selling the partnership.
I want the plane 'yesterday." Airshares promises a plane sooner than OurPlane. I just don’t want to wait around.
Call me the generalizer…but every Candian I’ve ever met and had contact with here in Florida just ‘didn’t get it.’ My theory is that their brains are frozen. I’m concerned with having any dealings with a Canadian. The owner/CEO of Ourplane is from Canada.
Can anyone offer some insight? I need help.
Alan
Sorry. I forgot to respond to your #2 above.
AirShares offers either direct, on-the-registration Ownership or will write an Exclusive Use License, if you’d prefer. While the legislation and case law differs by state, it isn’t at all clear that the EUL buys you much protection. Either way, everybody under the sun will get sued - Cirrus, the FAA, the service center, the pilot, the Owners (including EUL holders), AirShares, etc. The real issue is where a judge and jury will find liability.
As you know, 85% of the aircraft accidents are due to “pilot error”; if you are the pilot, you have a liability. If you are not the pilot, its not obvious what liability you have for the errors of a fellow pilot – whether you hold an EUL or a real share of the plane.
If the accident were caused by a mechanical failure, Cirrus and the service center are clearly in the plaintiff’s sights. As you have a contract with AirShares to ensure that the plane is maintained to manufacturer and FAA standards, AirShares has potential liability. Again, whether you are an Owner or a EUL holder, you have the protection of having a professional management organization arranging the maintenance, you have a licensed professional (usually a Cirrus service center) doing the physical work to Cirrus and FAA standards. Are you liable? Is it any different if you are an Owner or a long term lease (EUL) holder? Doubt it.
But, I’m not a lawyer; I do listen to their advice occassionally though.
I’ve been in AirShares for a long time. I don’t have much time now but I would be glad to talk to you regarding my history with them and their changes over the past few years. I purchased an initial eighth form them and then a second eighth from another owner. BTW, David Lee was VERY helpful in getting the used share sold. I have had my title moved a couple of times to help AirShares out but it has always been to an equal or better (newer) plane. The experience hasn’t been perfect but overall it has been excellent. Call me over the weekend. My contact info is
home 770-495-0465
mobile 770-853-4565
Airshares does an excellent job of moving planes around to handle customers. Marianna is awesome to work with. She is the most customer oriented person I have ever known.
[quote]
3. The OurPlane salesman locally is a buddy. I’ve been assured that if for some reason I had to leave the program early, he’d help facilitate the sale of my share. quote]
OK now that I am on a roll, all I can say to that is HA HA.
Rob had his say, but let me add to it. We had licences that were fully assignble, and we didn’t even ask for OurPlanes help in selling them. But, Graham decided, that fully assingable, actually meant, not assignable unless you tear up your contract and have the purchaser that you found enter into a new agreement with OurPlane on terms that were less favourable to the owner than the terms in our contract. To put it bluntly, I would not trust a word said by Graham, but that is only my opinion. You should talk to Graham and you “buddy” and form your own opinion.
Roof… I have owned my share with Ourplane for 4 years now. Prior to that I have owned many of my own aircraft from 152’s to twin commanche’s, over 25+ years of flying. Ourplane has been great to me and their customer service is outstanding. I have heard that Ourplane has fired some bad customers that hog aircraft or are problem pilots… exactly the aircraft managers I want Ourplane to be. …sounds like others simply have axes to grind.
Sure there is once in a while when my new SR22 G2 is booked but that is really rare, since I paid $70K for it, and for my savings every month compared to when I owned my own aircraft… I will recommend fractional anyday!. I have seen too many partnerships fall apart, they aren’t worth the aggrevation. If you want my vote, Ourplane is #1… they have given me every ounce of value I was expecting.
Although I have no experience with Air Shares Elite or Our Plane, I am a fractional leaseholder with a smaller company in California. I have been a leaseholder on 2 planes for 5 years and LOVE IT. I love to fly but don’t want to hassle the details (except when I’m in the cockpit).
For me, not having to manage the “details” of ownership, such as maintentance, cleaning, AD’s, SB’s and squawks has been great for me. If the plane is busy (not often) or in maintenance, I just take another plane. The added cost is small compared to the time and hassle you will put in as an “owner”, whether its individual or in partnership.
If you love working the details and enjoy fussing over things (some people do, just not me); then consider a used Cirrus as an individual owner to help reduce the cost.
Its great to have choices as people’s interests vary. Carefully assess what you like to do and where you want to spend your time and then choose the method that best works for you.
No experience with Airshares, but (as I have posted here many many times) after an initial bit of heartburn (almost two years ago, IIRC), everthing has gone well. Ourplane as been “velly, velly” good to me…I am a proud Ourplane driver…for my purposes, a partnership just doesn’t work…I have had to do exactly nothing with the plane…I don’t want to deal with the agravation of managing the plane…so I have had no SB’s, maintenance, no cleaning, no hassles, nada, zip, to think about…they do everything for you…I just fly…and the aircraft availability has been very good as well…and if there is a time I would like to go and the plane is booked, the majority of the time I can usually work with Ourplanes cust. serv. person and trade with one of the other partners…it’s been a hoot… email me if you have any further questions and I can talk with you on the phone about it…
I am hoping someone can help me clarify some conflicting info from the AirShares people.
I talked with a sales rep from AirShares. First told me hourly rate was $89 for 75 hours and $175 for anything above that. Told me transition training (up to 20 hours) was part of the 75 hours. Talked with him later that day and was told the 175 rate was only for transition training and extra hours were 210 (DRY RATE). Of course that means my first 20 hours are charged at 175, the next 55 hours are at 89 and anything after that is 210 (DRY). A big difference from our first conversation. Can someone who is has invested in the AirShares program please respond with what the read deal is? Thanks much.
I was waiting for someone to make this post, but I figured it would be Robert way before you!
I would wait for a couple good partners and rent in the meantime, or nut up and buy it yourself. I would even consider an older one that I could own myself instead. Partnerships are very tough to find and very rarely work out.
I agree with Joe…If you could purchase a used one on your own that is the way to go. Scheduling with 3 other partners can be a problem. I was partners on a Cessna Cardinal with 1 other person. Usually not a problem until that one time you really want to go somewhere on short notice and cannot because someone else has your plane. Good luck
The availabilty issue was not a problem with OurPlane and I flew about 50-70 hours per year.
I hate to disagree with my good friend Rob, but… as our plane might put it, our planes are only flown 1000 hours a year and there 8760 hours in a year, so our planes are available 90% of the time. And that’s true. Unfortunatly, a lot of the non flying time is when the planes are away from your home airport and some more of it is at night. However, if you want to fly during the day, on weekends, and especially in the summer … well, lets just say, its a good thing its so cold up here and summers are so short.
If you are a PLATINUM member, then you get to book in advance of everyone else, and you never have availabity problems. All you have to do is prebook every weekend and then release the plane if you are not using it. And don’t think people don’t do that. But if you are a lowly SILVER member, as we were, then don’t even dream of taking the plane away for a weekend in the summer. We could book 30 days in advance, but weekends were usually partially booked by then, so if you wanted to go away for a weekend … forgetaboutit. And don’t think of last minute bookings or avaiability. IF you are lucky, and you wake up on Saturday and the sky is blue and you feel like flying, you will maybe find 1 or 2 hours free during the day … IF you are lucky. Usually you won’t.
At CYKZ the had 2 182s with, as near as I could figure (it kept changing) about 10 pilots in each. The problem was, we were also allowed to book each other group’s plane. So if one plane was in for maintenance, or had been taken away for a week by Mr Platinum, then around 19 other people were trying to book 1 other plane. Use your imagination.
'nuff said.
Gary
[Note: For CYA purposes, hours flown and number or people flying each plane are my estimates only and have not been verified. For accurate information, please contact OurPlane directly. The information contained herein is the authors opinion only and is not to be relied upon]
Wow, my experience with AirShares has been very different. They work hard to move planes around and satisfy everyone. Having a large fleet of SR22s means they have a lot of flexibility. I have gone through preflight, found a problem, and been switched to another plane. One time I had an avionics problem (Bad avionics switch) and Mac took the sandel out of that plane, put it into one that had a bad sandel needing repair, flew a quick check flight, and I made my trip. It was day VFR and CAVU so I was willing to do that. Still, that is great service. There was a period where availability got noticeably tighter but AirShares sent out an email announcing what they were doing to address the issue. Availability recently has been good. You might wind up in a plane that is older than the one you bought into. If you bought into a new GTS you might be in an old 6 pack but they generally try to keep you in something similar to what you bought into. Sherri and I get the 6 packs a lot since that is what we own but we have, at times, been forced to fly the PFDs. We had to go through additional training to meet AirShares’ requirements but did it for the increased flexibility and better availability.
A negative is that you can’t leave headphones, GPS etc. in the plane like you can when you own the entire plane. You also need to always double check default avionics setup.
On the plus side, I suspect I have less downtime than if I owned an entire plane by myself.
Thank you for your insight into Fractional Cirrus SR-22 ownership options. I noticed that the tone of your comments seemed to be fair in contrast to some others, that seem to have more conviction and perhaps for good reasons. I have started looking into fractional as an option to reduce huge sitting costs.
I noticed your tail number login id is the same as the pictures on the Airshares website. Is this the tail number for the plane you own with Airshares?
I think it is a great reflection of your aviation enthusiasm and was thinking of doing the same. I guess I’ll have to wait until I get one (tail number) first.
I have talked with sales people here in Florida and hope that I may ask you a couple of questions?
I wanted to get some answers from the outside, that I can’t get from sales people.
How long have you owned with Airshares?
What were your main concerns going in and looking back how do you view the results.
I agree that OurPlane has an incredible asset in Mike Huffman, the Operations guy with OurPlane… my previous messages a few years ago go on about how good and decent he is and the outstanind customer service he would provide. When OurPlane’s “accounting department” overbilled me, Mike went to bat for me on many occasions to get them to reverse the charges. (they still owe Gary for the GST on his share.)
However, somebody telling me that OurPlane “fired” any cash flow - I mean customers- is the funniest thing I’ve heard in a long time. Better spin doctoring than offering a “free BMW” with your OurPlane purchase.
As for axes to grind, both my and Gary’s stories are truthful and were they not Graham would long ago have followed through on his threats of lawsuits.
Word of mouth works both ways. If someone is happy they are encouraged to tell others, if they are not and their experience is truthful then one might say they have an obligation to tell others lest the same problems befall them.
I am a strong advocate of shared ownership, “fractional”, use license, partnerships alike depending on each circumstances. I have had excellent partnerships over many years and airplanes and tried OurPlane. In fact I was a much stronger advocate of OurPlane initally than I am now cautioning others. I gave a talk at the Buttonville Flying Club some four or five years ago outright promoting OurPlane. However I have become more cautious since some that I influenced to sign up came back later saying they were unhappy.
Out of curiousity which Twin Comanche did you own? (Common mistake among the public is to spell Comanche with two “m” s.)
