How do I file to pick up a clearance in the air?

For the first time I plan to take off VFR then pick up my clearance in the air after a few minutes (so I can return if a new to small airplanes passenger decides she would rather not fly).

How do I file? I do not want to file a composite VFR/IFR plan since I only plan to fly VFR for five minutes or so. So do I file normally with my home base as the starting position and add “Pick up Clearance while airborne” in the comments field? or do I use a navaid as my starting point?

You can do either. Either depart VFR with the remarks that you will pick up the clearance or file to start your IFR at a navaid after you takeoff. I have done both methods many times over many years.
Just be sure the weather is such that you can maimtail VFR until ATC can give you your clearance in the air. So you obviously need VFR weather at your departure point for either method to work.

In reply to:


For the first time I plan to take off VFR then pick up my clearance in the air after a few minutes (so I can return if a new to small airplanes passenger decides she would rather not fly).
How do I file? I do not want to file a composite VFR/IFR plan since I only plan to fly VFR for five minutes or so. So do I file normally with my home base as the starting position and add “Pick up Clearance while airborne” in the comments field? or do I use a navaid as my starting point?


David – I would add this to Brian’s post … if you fly out of a towered field, I usually call ground with taxi request permission and request flight following while indicating I will pick my IFR flight plan " enroute " …this keeps them from inadvertantly killing the IFR plan.

David,

This depends on how busy the controller is and how close you may be to other IFR aircraft. In busy airspace ATC can say “unable” or “call back in 20 minutes.” Also you may find that the facility may have to locate your clearance which may not be right at the controller’s fingertips. It really burdens the system unnecessarily in some cases.

In reply to:


So do I file normally with my home base as the starting position and add “Pick up Clearance while airborne” in the comments field?


Only the words “Pick up clearance” would appear on the controller’s flight strip since this field is limited in length. See below.

I would suggest that you pick up the IFR clearance on the ground as normal, cancel if you must or just ask for a diversion back to your departure airport; you will get an amended clearance.

Thanks to all for the replies. I should have mentioned it is a clear VFR day (otherwise no point in giving new-to-small-airplanes a ride) but I ALWAYS file in the SR20 (and never in the Ercoupe -g-).

Since I am going North from LWM the controllers are not very busy (going South is another story) - I can always get direct.

Thanks for the example strip as well.

Based on Scott’s comments I guess I have finally found a reason to file a composite flight plan. I know I could amend an IFR plan but I hate having to deal with ATC with a passenger who just wants to get on the ground.

Scott:
Good pont. I usually use an air pick up going out of a non-towered field so the tower is a non-issue for me most of the time. Since at towered airports, you get your IFR clearance from them ON THE GROUND, it is obviously a different “kettle of fish”.

I have never seen an example of a controllers flight strip…

Very interesting…

Thanks for sharing

.

There is a somewhat related issue to this thread that is worth mentioning, which is the ability to get an IFR clearance, even without an IFR plan. In an emergency situation, or at least an urgent situation, such as the immediate need to descend through a cloud deck to land in order to escape, e.g., rapidly developing thunderstorms, you can request and receive the needed clearance. I recall one summer afternoon in the Washington DC area (pre-ADIZ), when pilots everywhere were landing at the nearest airport to escape a huge unforecast storm system that was suddenly surrounding the area. More than one pilot requested, and got, emergency IFR clearances to get down…ATC took only minimal information (type aircraft, number on board) and put it in the system. The storms were developing so rapidly, there literally was no time to call FSS and do everything by the book.

Ah…the good old days, when Washington DC ATC was actually there to HELP!

At the SWRFI, we enjoyed a talk by a local tower controller. This topic came up, and he recommended both methods (use remarks, or just file from a navaid).

In the case of the remarks, he did not that only a few characters will show up. The shorthand he recommended for this situation is:

PUP fix-name

as in “Pick UP”. So if you use the VOR ABC, the remarks woudl be “PUP ABC”

In reply to:


Instead of filing a composite flight plan or filing IFR from the departure airport then possibly having to cancel / divert if the pax doesn’t like it after all, just:

(1) file from a nearby fix (VOR/ NDB, etc.) to the destination airport.
(2) pick up the clearance ON THE GROUND prior to departure. Be certain to tell the controller your ETA at the fix in your request call-up (and be sure to add a healthy fudge factor, just in case you have to hold for departure at the runway).


This is a great suggestion Bill.

In reply to:


This might get a little complicated if you’re departing a class C or B airport (or class D under a C or B shelf) , since departure control will want to vector VFR traffic, but it works well for uncontrolled and class D airports.


Especially if the airport is in the ADIZ! [:(]

I just returned from SWRFI and a nice long cross country (VGT-ELP-AUS).

Following the advice of the KVGT controllers, I used this method, with mixed results. We were told that filing IFR from KVGT was a BAD idea, since all IFR departures are given the North Town One departure which adds 100 nm to your trip.

My intended route of flight was KVGT - BLD - DRK - PSX - and then continued on to the east, ending with a fuel stop in El Paso.

So, I filed an IFR flight plan with DRK as the starting point and the rest of the route as planned. I put in the remarks section that I would pick up the clearance in the air.

Following the advice of locals, I simply departed VFR, headed WEST to get out from under the Las Vegas Class Bravo airspace, climbed to 9500’ and headed direct DRK. This took me right over Vegas and got me on my intended route very quickly.

Now the hitch — when I called Center and tried to pick up my clearance as I neared Drake, I got the dreaded “Call back in ten minutes.” Ten minutes later I got the same treatment. I even tried to at least get flight following and got “No VFR services available at this time.”

Luckily, it looked like I would have VMC most of the way to ELP, so I just blew it off and went Direct ELP at 15,500. Having figured out that LA Center wanted nothing to do with me, I waited until I was in Albuquerque ARTCC and got flight following from them. As I neared ELP, I picked up a local IFR to get me down through a scattered layer of clouds and some dense haze. They were landing the ILS 22 at ELP.

So, it all worked out great, but would have been a HUGE pain if it had not been VFR conditions for much of the route.

I think the next time I will try picking up the clearance while on the ground and getting a void time, as suggested on this thread.

Stephen:

I had a similar experience departing VGT for CCB Upland, CA after the last CPPP there earlier this year.

VGT ground announced a very substantial delay for an IFR departure. We had VFR conditions but needed an IFR clearance since CCB had a very low ceiling.

We took off VFR and contacted Las Vegas Approach as instructed, expecting that they would open our IFR flight plan. No such luck in two different sectors of Las Vegas Approach. We were basically vectored southwest out of the Las Vegas Class Bravo airspace and finally advised to contact Los Angeles Center. Center had no problem opening our IFR flight plan.

The filed route was KVGT LAS DAG APLES PDZ POM KCCB. There was no suggestion of the North Town One departure from VGT ground, just that it would take some very long time (I don’t remember just how long, but it was long) before any IFR release would be forthcoming.

According to the North Town One plate, the direct distance from North Las Vegas Apt to LAS R310/D15 is 8 NM. We would have flown that if they would have given us an IFR release out of VGT.

The training experience at the CPPP at VGT basically required flying to outlying airports. I think Las Vegas Approach takes the position that they have so much commercial traffic into McCarren that they won’t deal with any other IFR traffic out of VGT.

Now that Mike Radomsky is based there, he could comment and elaborate on his experience there.

Departing VGT yesterday afternoon after the SWRFI, I too found that LA Center was very busy. I went through 2 sectors before I could get VFR flight following and by then there were 3 other planes on standby waiting to get a callback! There seemed to be both a lot of work for the controllers (rerouting bizjet folks who had taken off VFR and were looking for IFR clearnances) and probably understaffing.

The delay made me wonder if there isn’t a crunch coming sooner rather than later – have the funding levels dropped or the productivity expectations risen to such unrealistic levels that GA is going to take a backseat to commercial scheduled traffic?

Cheers
Rick

In reply to:


Now that Mike Radomsky is based there, he could comment and elaborate on his experience there.


Stephen,

Although I’ve been based here for just over 3 months now, I have yet to actually depart on a real IFR trip. My flying has been fairly local - so I’ve contented myself with VFR radar advisories, a.k.a. Flight Following. (One exception, but that time I really did decide mid-trip to Santa Barbara that I needed IFR, so it was really a pop-up).

I have heard the tower personnel recommend the procedure being discussed here before: Depart VFR, pick up your IFR clearance in the air. But, it seems, a lot of people seemed to have difficulty converting this into practice, because LA Center was just too darn busy. I know that Walt Gontowski experienced much the same thing yesterday. Now I’m wondering whether the REAL problem is that VGT tower just doesn’t LIKE giving clearances!

  • Mike.

Mike:

My experience was that L. A. Center had no problem in giving us our clearance. They did not seem at all surprised that we had flown through many miles of the Las Vegas Class Bravo and still did not have our clearance.

There seems to be an informal, or perhaps formal arrangement between Las Vegas Approach and Los Angeles Center that “Appriach will vector traffic out of the Class Bravo, and L. A. Center will give the traffic their clearance”.

I don’t know if this practice is just limited to VFR days (admittedly nearly all of the Las Vegas Class Bravo days) or whether it applies to IMC as well.

In reply to:


Now I’m wondering whether the REAL problem is that VGT tower just doesn’t LIKE giving clearances!


After the discussions at SWRFI with the tower folks, I’m convinced that they would give clearances if they had them . . . but the coordination in your neighborhood seems problematic. We learned that VGT and Nellis don’t have automation for hand-offs of inbound traffic. We learned that the Northtown departure requires coordination between LAS approach control and Nellis. And from experience, I’ve learned that airliner traffic into Las Vegas is pretty constant and busy. Now try to get an IFR clearance! As Brock pointed out, your request gets put at the end of the queue of all the IFR requests at LAS.
For VGT, what I think works best is a VFR departure with a Class B clearance to a nearby VOR to pickup your IFR clearance. The Class B clearance ensures that LAS is in the loop and hopefully will induce a handoff to LA Center.

My fear is that we’re going to experience more frequent “unable” responses to request for hand-offs that are not in the IFR system.

Cheers
Rick

In reply to:


Depart VFR, pick up your IFR clearance in the air. But, it seems, a lot of people seemed to have difficulty converting this into practice, because LA Center was just too darn busy. I know that Walt Gontowski experienced much the same thing yesterday.


I’ve departed VGT twice in the past year picking up my IFR clearance on the ground. Both times I filed the Northtown1 DP. Both times I only had to wait a few minutes before being released. Maybe it was the time of day (early morning) or time of year, or maybe they just wanted to get rid of me! [:)]

This time per the tower’s suggestion, I filed IFR with PUP BLD in the Remarks section and departed VFR with a Class B transition. I was given a squawk code and after departing switched to LAS approach. They vectored me out of the area and told me to squawk VFR.

I then tried calling LA Center (“Stand By”). They couldn’t find my clearance. While waiting I found myself in a chicken race with a 737 at my 12 o’clock. I chickened and turned right to avoid ruining the day.

Half way home I asked if I could at least get Fright Following. The controller finally cleared me to PRC at 11K and 10 minutes later gave me a squawk code.

All’s well that ends!

As a side note as I entered a right down wind at PRC I had problems trimming the plane. I had to really force a lot of left yoke to keep it straight. Duh, the autopilot was ON. I forgot I was having the Goddess use the buttons on the autopilot to set HDG (Help Dear God), NAV and Alt for practice.

Walt

In reply to:


This time per the tower’s suggestion, I filed IFR with PUP BLD in the Remarks section and departed VFR with a Class B transition. I was given a squawk code and after departing switched to LAS approach. They vectored me out of the area and told me to squawk VFR.

I then tried calling LA Center (“Stand By”). They couldn’t find my clearance. While waiting I found myself in a chicken race with a 737 at my 12 o’clock. I chickened and turned right to avoid ruining the day.


If the point of departure you filed was KVGT, I’m not surprised that they didn’t find it. When I want to depart VFR for one of the many advantages of doing so but want to end up IFR I often will file an IFR flight plan with the departure point being a VOR enroute, and I usually pick one that is in a sleepy area. Since I am almost always on flight following anyway, I’ll remark on my callup with the likely controller as I approach the area that I’ll soon be picking up my IFR flight plan, so they’ll usually have the strip right there and ready to go when I ask for the clearance. If the departure point of the flight plan is in their airspace, they will have the strip.

I have never had any difficulty at all using this strategy. (I know ACOPA #1 recently tried this and liked it as well.) The biggest pain is closing the VFR flight plan for the VFR leg.

Yes, I’m aware of composite flight plans, but I think they open up too many ways for them to screw it up.

I usually fly VFR with flight following unless the weather is IFR or I’m flying into busy airspace I’m not familiar with.

I routinely ask for an IFR “pop-up” clearance to get down through a broken layer, at night if maintaining VFR is questionable or when the weather at the destination takes a turn for the worse.

Most of my flying is in the SE and the controllers have been 100% accomodating and pleasant in fielding my requests.

I’ve only had one request denied. After leaving Oshkosh I was over Lake Michigan headed towards Battle Creek and the layers seemed to be converging a bit. When I asked for an IFR into Battle Vreek I got a terse “unable”. It ended up not being an issue. I’m not sure if it was the volume of traffic leaving Oshkosh or differences in regions but, again, I’ve never had that happen in the SE.