Hot Stuff

Guest Discussion
#1

For family reasons have had to travel constantly between the SF Bay Area, where I’m living, and SBD in southern Calif, to see my parents. Latest trip, over fourth of July, provides PIREP on hot weather performance.

Plane was just at 2900 pound gross.

On takeoff from Concord, KCCR, on the afternoon of July 3, ATIS reported temperature 45 centigrade, 113 F. Jeez louise! Field altitude is just above sea level. Climbed out at about 800 fpm. When I got to 2000 ft, the oil temp was nearing the red line. Leveled off for about two minutes. Went back into green. Climbed at about 400 fpm without further incident to 7500 ft.

Returning the next day, AWOS temperature at SBD was 36 C, 96F. Field elevation about 1200 ft. Plane again just at gross. Had to go IFR because of overcast and scattered t-storms in soutern calif. IFR depature means more or less nonstop climb to 10,000 feet to get over San Bernardino/San Gorgonio mountain range. Climbed at 700-800 fpm without incident to about 4000 ft. Got worried about oil temp, lowered rate of climb to 400 fpm. Had to level off for 1-2 minutes, for cooling, at about 6000 and about 8000 feet. Each time explained situation to ATC, which vectored me around in some S-turns to build altitude before going over the mountains. Got to 10,000 ft, leveled off, cruised without concern from then on (except for the once-in-blue-moon CB clouds through the central valley).

In short: confirmation for my previous view that if you are going to be doing most of your flying west of the 100th meridian, the 22 is the way to go. OTOH, the plucky 20 got off the ground – just required eagle eye to the oil temp (rather than CHT, not an issue either time) throughout the climb.

#2

Jim: Do you use oxygen at 10,000 feet? If so, which product?

BTW, I’m halfway through your book and loving it. 3 other pilots asked to borrow it when I’m finished, but I told them to buy a copy and support the author!

Thanks for the hot PIREP.

  • Steven

For family reasons have had to travel constantly between the SF Bay Area, where I’m living, and SBD in southern Calif, to see my parents. Latest trip, over fourth of July, provides PIREP on hot weather performance.

Plane was just at 2900 pound gross.

On takeoff from Concord, KCCR, on the afternoon of July 3, ATIS reported temperature 45 centigrade, 113 F. Jeez louise! Field altitude is just above sea level. Climbed out at about 800 fpm. When I got to 2000 ft, the oil temp was nearing the red line. Leveled off for about two minutes. Went back into green. Climbed at about 400 fpm without further incident to 7500 ft.

Returning the next day, AWOS temperature at SBD was 36 C, 96F. Field elevation about 1200 ft. Plane again just at gross. Had to go IFR because of overcast and scattered t-storms in soutern calif. IFR depature means more or less nonstop climb to 10,000 feet to get over San Bernardino/San Gorgonio mountain range. Climbed at 700-800 fpm without incident to about 4000 ft. Got worried about oil temp, lowered rate of climb to 400 fpm. Had to level off for 1-2 minutes, for cooling, at about 6000 and about 8000 feet. Each time explained situation to ATC, which vectored me around in some S-turns to build altitude before going over the mountains. Got to 10,000 ft, leveled off, cruised without concern from then on (except for the once-in-blue-moon CB clouds through the central valley).

In short: confirmation for my previous view that if you are going to be doing most of your flying west of the 100th meridian, the 22 is the way to go. OTOH, the plucky 20 got off the ground – just required eagle eye to the oil temp (rather than CHT, not an issue either time) throughout the climb.

#3

Jim or Others:

In St. Louis it isn’t as hot as Southern California, but I’m paying very close attention to to the oil temps as well. A couple of questions:

1)POH says 240 degrees max. At what temp is it best to start taking precautionary actions? Will 240 hurt the engine?

2)Will the new cowling, with the light on the bottom help the ventilation?

3)Is the best strategy to climb fairly fast (700-800 fpm), thereby reducing the time for the engine to heat up, or do it gradually (200-300 fpm), thereby reducing the stress but increasing the time?

4)Any weight of oil better than others? Fill to 8 quarts help?

5)Does the engine do better as it gets broken in? CD indicated this may be the case?

6)Is this unusual for a high performance, tightly cowled plane? Never happened on my Warrior.

7)Assume gross weight increase won’t help situation.

Thanks for the help.

For family reasons have had to travel constantly between the SF Bay Area, where I’m living, and SBD in southern Calif, to see my parents. Latest trip, over fourth of July, provides PIREP on hot weather performance.

Plane was just at 2900 pound gross.

On takeoff from Concord, KCCR, on the afternoon of July 3, ATIS reported temperature 45 centigrade, 113 F. Jeez louise! Field altitude is just above sea level. Climbed out at about 800 fpm. When I got to 2000 ft, the oil temp was nearing the red line. Leveled off for about two minutes. Went back into green. Climbed at about 400 fpm without further incident to 7500 ft.

Returning the next day, AWOS temperature at SBD was 36 C, 96F. Field elevation about 1200 ft. Plane again just at gross. Had to go IFR because of overcast and scattered t-storms in soutern calif. IFR depature means more or less nonstop climb to 10,000 feet to get over San Bernardino/San Gorgonio mountain range. Climbed at 700-800 fpm without incident to about 4000 ft. Got worried about oil temp, lowered rate of climb to 400 fpm. Had to level off for 1-2 minutes, for cooling, at about 6000 and about 8000 feet. Each time explained situation to ATC, which vectored me around in some S-turns to build altitude before going over the mountains. Got to 10,000 ft, leveled off, cruised without concern from then on (except for the once-in-blue-moon CB clouds through the central valley).

In short: confirmation for my previous view that if you are going to be doing most of your flying west of the 100th meridian, the 22 is the way to go. OTOH, the plucky 20 got off the ground – just required eagle eye to the oil temp (rather than CHT, not an issue either time) throughout the climb.

#4

In short: confirmation for my previous view that if you are going to be doing most of your flying west of the 100th meridian, the 22 is the way to go. OTOH, the plucky 20 got off the ground – just required eagle eye to the oil temp (rather than CHT, not an issue either time) throughout the climb.

Jim,

Just a word of warning… I used to think the CHT was not a problem during hot long climbs, too, and kept my eye more on the oil temp. After getting the engine monitoring package installed, the CHTs on the hottest cylinder are commonly 410-420 degrees on a hot long climb; the factory CHT gauge never got that high prior to the engine monitoring installation.

I’m taking the plane in the week of the 23rd to see which is right – original CHT reading or new engine monitoring reading, but until then I’m playing it safe, and the CHT is the limiting factor.

[This is not the issue reported earlier that the factory CHT gauge reads lower than the Arnav reading during the same flight… my point is that the Arnav readings now are much higher than the factory gauge readings ever were (prior to arnav installation)].

I’ll post what the findings are, but just wanted to point out that the CHTs on at least a couple cylinders might be running significantly higher than it appears just by looking at the gauge.

Steve

#5

From the Aircraft Operating Engine Guide by Kas Thomas, a well thought-of light engine maint book, page 181 on high oil temps, to summarize:

To determine if the oil temps are really high, you need to look at the oil pressure. “High oil temp and low oil press go hand in hand.” So, if your oil pressure is normal, the near red-lined oil temps may not really be a serious problem. Perhaps, the calibration is off on the oil temp gauge. However, if the oil pressure drops, you’ve got a problem --it really is overheating. Has anyone thought to cross-check the oil pressure gauge with the oil temp gauge?

For family reasons have had to travel constantly between the SF Bay Area, where I’m living, and SBD in southern Calif, to see my parents. Latest trip, over fourth of July, provides PIREP on hot weather performance.

Plane was just at 2900 pound gross.

On takeoff from Concord, KCCR, on the afternoon of July 3, ATIS reported temperature 45 centigrade, 113 F. Jeez louise! Field altitude is just above sea level. Climbed out at about 800 fpm. When I got to 2000 ft, the oil temp was nearing the red line. Leveled off for about two minutes. Went back into green. Climbed at about 400 fpm without further incident to 7500 ft.

Returning the next day, AWOS temperature at SBD was 36 C, 96F. Field elevation about 1200 ft. Plane again just at gross. Had to go IFR because of overcast and scattered t-storms in soutern calif. IFR depature means more or less nonstop climb to 10,000 feet to get over San Bernardino/San Gorgonio mountain range. Climbed at 700-800 fpm without incident to about 4000 ft. Got worried about oil temp, lowered rate of climb to 400 fpm. Had to level off for 1-2 minutes, for cooling, at about 6000 and about 8000 feet. Each time explained situation to ATC, which vectored me around in some S-turns to build altitude before going over the mountains. Got to 10,000 ft, leveled off, cruised without concern from then on (except for the once-in-blue-moon CB clouds through the central valley).

In short: confirmation for my previous view that if you are going to be doing most of your flying west of the 100th meridian, the 22 is the way to go. OTOH, the plucky 20 got off the ground – just required eagle eye to the oil temp (rather than CHT, not an issue either time) throughout the climb.

#6

One more post here.If Cirrus would simply re-design the air inlets on the cowl to direct the realitive wind more direct into the baffles in a climb.Go look at a grumman tiger inlet or the da-40.If you look at the inlet the have angles to them to direct the air in a climb.It’s a simple redo.This design does wonders.I don’t know what else they could to solve this. -jeff -and no I have nothing to do with grumman or da-

#7

Jim: Do you use oxygen at 10,000 feet? If so, which product?

I don’t have oxygen in this plane. I’ve always stayed within the legal limits for non-oxygen travel (eg, not above 12,500 for more than 30 minutes). I’ve also made a point of avoiding 9000 and above at night, and of checking my fingernails etc to see if they’re turning blue. OTOH I’ve been a distance runner since my teenager years so have hoped I’m in better aerobic shape than what the FARs may assume.

BTW, I’m halfway through your book and loving it. 3 other pilots asked to borrow it when I’m finished, but I told them to buy a copy and support the author!

Thanks! Thanks for reading it, and THANKS for steering your friends to the store!

#8

4)Any weight of oil better than others? Fill to 8 quarts help?

Filling to 8 quarts will just grease tbe belly of the plane - 7 quarts and over results in lots of oil going out the breather tube.

#9

Unfortunately, I can’t answer any of these questions except to agree with Clyde about oil-fill levels. The dipstick goes up to 8 qts, but 7 seems to be the practical maximum.

Jim or Others:

In St. Louis it isn’t as hot as Southern California, but I’m paying very close attention to to the oil temps as well. A couple of questions:

1)POH says 240 degrees max. At what temp is it best to start taking precautionary actions? Will 240 hurt the engine?

2)Will the new cowling, with the light on the bottom help the ventilation?

3)Is the best strategy to climb fairly fast (700-800 fpm), thereby reducing the time for the engine to heat up, or do it gradually (200-300 fpm), thereby reducing the stress but increasing the time?

4)Any weight of oil better than others? Fill to 8 quarts help?

5)Does the engine do better as it gets broken in? CD indicated this may be the case?

6)Is this unusual for a high performance, tightly cowled plane? Never happened on my Warrior.

7)Assume gross weight increase won’t help situation.

Thanks for the help.

For family reasons have had to travel constantly between the SF Bay Area, where I’m living, and SBD in southern Calif, to see my parents. Latest trip, over fourth of July, provides PIREP on hot weather performance.

Plane was just at 2900 pound gross.

On takeoff from Concord, KCCR, on the afternoon of July 3, ATIS reported temperature 45 centigrade, 113 F. Jeez louise! Field altitude is just above sea level. Climbed out at about 800 fpm. When I got to 2000 ft, the oil temp was nearing the red line. Leveled off for about two minutes. Went back into green. Climbed at about 400 fpm without further incident to 7500 ft.

Returning the next day, AWOS temperature at SBD was 36 C, 96F. Field elevation about 1200 ft. Plane again just at gross. Had to go IFR because of overcast and scattered t-storms in soutern calif. IFR depature means more or less nonstop climb to 10,000 feet to get over San Bernardino/San Gorgonio mountain range. Climbed at 700-800 fpm without incident to about 4000 ft. Got worried about oil temp, lowered rate of climb to 400 fpm. Had to level off for 1-2 minutes, for cooling, at about 6000 and about 8000 feet. Each time explained situation to ATC, which vectored me around in some S-turns to build altitude before going over the mountains. Got to 10,000 ft, leveled off, cruised without concern from then on (except for the once-in-blue-moon CB clouds through the central valley).

In short: confirmation for my previous view that if you are going to be doing most of your flying west of the 100th meridian, the 22 is the way to go. OTOH, the plucky 20 got off the ground – just required eagle eye to the oil temp (rather than CHT, not an issue either time) throughout the climb.

#10

Jim or Others:

In St. Louis it isn’t as hot as Southern California, but I’m paying very close attention to to the oil temps as well. A couple of questions:

1)POH says 240 degrees max. At what temp is it best to start taking precautionary actions? Will 240 hurt the engine?

For the first 1K of altitude, do the max climb (for safety reason, not oil) then lower the nose and adjust for airspeed above 120Kts Temp, Humitity, how hot was the engine prior to taken off, how big the breakfast that you and your passengers consumed etc has an effect) You must start to adjust before it get to 200 F., do it gradual and you wont slow your climb too much.

2)Will the new cowling, with the light on the bottom help the ventilation?

You can gain more by closing off all your leaks inside the engine cowling. Remove the top cowling

thing of yourself as an air bubble trying to escape without going thru the normal way, by the cylinders.

3)Is the best strategy to climb fairly fast (700-800 fpm), thereby reducing the time for the engine to heat up, or do it gradually (200-300 fpm), thereby reducing the stress but increasing the time?

Shalow climb is always best, this will help you make it to TBO. Less to worry about, and you will be cooler too (more airflow)

4)Any weight of oil better than others? Fill to 8 quarts help?

Exxon has a new one that is hi-tech, I have a case in the garage but can’t remember the name… I think I overtemp the only brain cell. An extra oil cooler would help.

5)Does the engine do better as it gets broken in? CD indicated this may be the case?

It depends on what you mean by better. The Hp wont double, the friction will always be there but less of it once all the parts meet each other and get along, and then you can get ride of that oil and put some good stuff in there, yes, it will.

6)Is this unusual for a high performance, tightly cowled plane? Never happened on my Warrior.

Yes, this is why I keep saying, don’t talk about the poker game while the motor is running, you should be running your checklist and get running down the runningway (sorry I couldn’t help that)

7)Assume gross weight increase won’t help situation.

Did you know that bonanzas had rocket motor to help the takeoff?

Well that’s my nickels worth.

Have a great Cirrus X day (SR2"X")

Woor

Thanks for the help.

For family reasons have had to travel constantly between the SF Bay Area, where I’m living, and SBD in southern Calif, to see my parents. Latest trip, over fourth of July, provides PIREP on hot weather performance.

Plane was just at 2900 pound gross.

On takeoff from Concord, KCCR, on the afternoon of July 3, ATIS reported temperature 45 centigrade, 113 F. Jeez louise! Field altitude is just above sea level. Climbed out at about 800 fpm. When I got to 2000 ft, the oil temp was nearing the red line. Leveled off for about two minutes. Went back into green. Climbed at about 400 fpm without further incident to 7500 ft.

Returning the next day, AWOS temperature at SBD was 36 C, 96F. Field elevation about 1200 ft. Plane again just at gross. Had to go IFR because of overcast and scattered t-storms in soutern calif. IFR depature means more or less nonstop climb to 10,000 feet to get over San Bernardino/San Gorgonio mountain range. Climbed at 700-800 fpm without incident to about 4000 ft. Got worried about oil temp, lowered rate of climb to 400 fpm. Had to level off for 1-2 minutes, for cooling, at about 6000 and about 8000 feet. Each time explained situation to ATC, which vectored me around in some S-turns to build altitude before going over the mountains. Got to 10,000 ft, leveled off, cruised without concern from then on (except for the once-in-blue-moon CB clouds through the central valley).

In short: confirmation for my previous view that if you are going to be doing most of your flying west of the 100th meridian, the 22 is the way to go. OTOH, the plucky 20 got off the ground – just required eagle eye to the oil temp (rather than CHT, not an issue either time) throughout the climb.

#11

Has anyone tried the M-20 Air/Oil Separator in a Cirrus? One of their claims is to be able to run with “full” oil levels.

Konrad

4)Any weight of oil better than others? Fill to 8 quarts help?

Filling to 8 quarts will just grease tbe belly of the plane - 7 quarts and over results in lots of oil going out the breather tube.

#12

4)Any weight of oil better than others? Fill to 8 quarts help?

Filling to 8 quarts will just grease tbe belly of the plane - 7 quarts and over results in lots of oil going out the breather tube.

Has anyone changed the cowling and put the light lower out of intake area? Has it helped the heat situation? My experience flying in So Cal has been the same as Jim. Until at cruise altitude you just have to be aware of monitor temps

#13

Filling to 8 quarts will just grease tbe belly of the plane - 7 quarts and over results in lots of oil going out the breather tube.
I’d heard that, but it must vary somewhat by individual engine. My oil level goes down evenly from 8 qts (after oil change) to a hair under 7 qts 30 hours later. Other than during break in, have not had to add any oil between changes yet, although the consumption rate does seem to be picking up a hair now, so will probably wind up adding a quart before my next change. 195 hours so far.
Still - I always have some oil on the belly after a flight.

  • Mike.
#14

4)Any weight of oil better than others? Fill to 8 quarts help?

Filling to 8 quarts will just grease tbe belly of the plane - 7 quarts and over results in lots of oil going out the breather tube.

Has anyone changed the cowling and put the light lower out of intake area? Has it helped the heat situation? My experience flying in So Cal has been the same as Jim. Until at cruise altitude you just have to be aware of monitor temps

Why doesn’t someone just remove the light (if it’s easy to do) and on a nice hot day go fly. Check the temps. If things improve we’ll know that the light is contributing- if not then plan B,whatever that might be.

Chris #102

#15

Why doesn’t someone just remove the light (if it’s easy to do) and on a nice hot day go fly. Check the temps. If things improve we’ll know that the light is contributing- if not then plan B,whatever that might be.

Chris,

What a GREAT idea! I think I’ll try it.

  • Mike.
#16

Still - I always have some oil on the belly after a flight.

After flying my 22 for awhile, I noticed oil dripping from the very end of the empennage, below the tail. At first this worried me, until I stopped and realized that, well, there is nothing with oil in it back there. Apparently the flow of air from the breather is such that it managed to hit the back end of the airplane without creating a mess along the way.

#17

After flying my 22 for awhile, I noticed oil dripping from the very end of the empennage, below the tail.

Dave,

Yup. On my 20, and on at least one 22 I’ve seen, that oil starts to work its way UP the trailing edge of the rudder if it’s not cleaned up.

Mike.

#18

To determine if the oil temps are really high, you need to look at the oil pressure. “High oil temp and low oil press go hand in hand.” So, if your oil pressure is normal, the near red-lined oil temps may not really be a serious problem. Perhaps, the calibration is off on the oil temp gauge. However, if the oil pressure drops, you’ve got a problem --it really is overheating. Has anyone thought to cross-check the oil pressure gauge with the oil temp gauge?

I didn’t know this explanation, but I was looking closely at the oil-pressure gauge during the hot episodes. My recollection is that it went somewhat lower as the oil temp went quite high. I am not, in the short run, planning any more of these very-high-temperature, very-steep-climb trips out of southern California, but I’ll keep an eye on all these different indicators through the summer. Thanks for the tip.

#19

Hello Jim,

Glad to hear you are out and about.

If you turn the A/C off prior to take off you will get better performance and the engine wont have to work so hard to get to cooler temps.

I bet you wished you had that problem…

Have a great Hot Cirrus day.

Woor

To determine if the oil temps are really high, you need to look at the oil pressure. “High oil temp and low oil press go hand in hand.” So, if your oil pressure is normal, the near red-lined oil temps may not really be a serious problem. Perhaps, the calibration is off on the oil temp gauge. However, if the oil pressure drops, you’ve got a problem --it really is overheating. Has anyone thought to cross-check the oil pressure gauge with the oil temp gauge?

I didn’t know this explanation, but I was looking closely at the oil-pressure gauge during the hot episodes. My recollection is that it went somewhat lower as the oil temp went quite high. I am not, in the short run, planning any more of these very-high-temperature, very-steep-climb trips out of southern California, but I’ll keep an eye on all these different indicators through the summer. Thanks for the tip.

#20

Yup, appreciate the a/c advice!

Also I was remembering your advice about keeping to a minimum the time when the engine was running on the ground. Tried to get everything organized so I had a minimum of taxiing and runup time.