putting in 50% flaps ( about 110 indicated) on downwind yesterday morning…i felt an usual bunp and the plane started rocking (mildly) side to side as if i were in turbulence. the air ,however, was extremely smooth all morning. after a few seconds ‘wondering what was going on’ i noticed the LEFT FLAP was going ‘in and out’ repeatedly…i moved the switch to 100% …no help, same movement!. So i retracted them and landed with ‘no flaps’…no problem. after parking, they seem to work fine. but, i had a friend check them out last evening and he said they were acting as if their ‘wires were crossed’ up switch means down and vice versa…has this happened to anyone because my service dept. is 90 miles away. I can give the local mechanic a heads up monday morning or he just call service @ cirrus
thanks,
don
Given the mechanical interconnect (a torque tube, if memory serves) between the two flaps, I suspect that they were moving in concert.
Sounds like one of the flap relays got stuck, and you should replace both of them. As far as I can surmise (there are no schematics in the shop manual) each relay controls the motion of the flap motor in one direction, and if a relay sticks (or arcs and welds itself) odd things will happen.
One of my partners in our SR20 had a flap failure during training (flaps would not extend, and the motor was running continuously) and I cut open the two relays after replacement. One of them had welded contacts, and the other showed signs of thermal distress.
According to the factory, flap relay failures are caused by reversing the direction of travel while the flaps are in motion. This damages the relays in such a way that they may fail much later. The flap relays are a weak spot in the design, regardless.
Do you suppose the recent SR22 landing accident could have been caused by flap problems resulting in lack of control or too much speed?
I hate to sound like Jeff, but when I read postings like these I feel less sad about selling my deposit.
These troublesome nits are adding up. I’ve no doubt that Cirrus will solve every one of them in the fullness of time . . . but maybe, especially now that they have more money in the bank, they should take a deep breath and reorient toward QC instead of “one-per-day” volume.
Otherwise, buyers or insurers will rebel.
putting in 50% flaps ( about 110 indicated) on downwind yesterday morning…i felt an usual bunp and the plane started rocking (mildly) side to side as if i were in turbulence. the air ,however, was extremely smooth all morning. after a few seconds ‘wondering what was going on’ i noticed the LEFT FLAP was going ‘in and out’ repeatedly…i moved the switch to 100% …no help, same movement!. So i retracted them and landed with ‘no flaps’…no problem. after parking, they seem to work fine. but, i had a friend check them out last evening and he said they were acting as if their ‘wires were crossed’ up switch means down and vice versa…has this happened to anyone because my service dept. is 90 miles away. I can give the local mechanic a heads up monday morning or he just call service @ cirrus
thanks,
don
Just a note.About the or near the 100th -20 we delivered had a severe inflight upset first flight due to a flap actuator gusset breaking loose.It holds the flap motor to the belly of the fuselage.Poor prep and bonding caused this.Rushing the job and being sloppy.Test pilot had a real tuff time controlling it as the flaps were on their own.I looked at the design and if it were mine I would install 2 bolts through the gusset instead of trusting the adhesive.It is a high stressed part.The employees were told to keep quiet on that deal. -jeff
At the Cirrus training it was common knowledge that relays were a problem. While I was doing the training I put in flaps but they didn’t extend at all. I was passing by the ident and no action would occur. So it’s a sensitive level to actuate the flaps. FYI Rick Kummerow
putting in 50% flaps ( about 110 indicated) on downwind yesterday morning…i felt an usual bunp and the plane started rocking (mildly) side to side as if i were in turbulence. the air ,however, was extremely smooth all morning. after a few seconds ‘wondering what was going on’ i noticed the LEFT FLAP was going ‘in and out’ repeatedly…i moved the switch to 100% …no help, same movement!. So i retracted them and landed with ‘no flaps’…no problem. after parking, they seem to work fine. but, i had a friend check them out last evening and he said they were acting as if their ‘wires were crossed’ up switch means down and vice versa…has this happened to anyone because my service dept. is 90 miles away. I can give the local mechanic a heads up monday morning or he just call service @ cirrus
thanks,
don
some similar asymetric problems (I think it was the flaps too) brought down one of the first PC-12 and caused some major re-engineering.
Serious stuff.
putting in 50% flaps ( about 110 indicated) on downwind yesterday morning…i felt an usual bunp and the plane started rocking (mildly) side to side as if i were in turbulence. the air ,however, was extremely smooth all morning. after a few seconds ‘wondering what was going on’ i noticed the LEFT FLAP was going ‘in and out’ repeatedly…i moved the switch to 100% …no help, same movement!. So i retracted them and landed with ‘no flaps’…no problem. after parking, they seem to work fine. but, i had a friend check them out last evening and he said they were acting as if their ‘wires were crossed’ up switch means down and vice versa…has this happened to anyone because my service dept. is 90 miles away. I can give the local mechanic a heads up monday morning or he just call service @ cirrus
thanks,
don
I wish I could take the manual flaps with me from my Piper – almost foolproof. Of course, you’ve got the big stick on the floor and, if you have a short arm (like my wife), you have to duck to pull it up. Is anything perfect?
Given the mechanical interconnect (a torque tube, if memory serves) between the two flaps, I suspect that they were moving in concert.
Sounds like one of the flap relays got stuck, and you should replace both of them. As far as I can surmise (there are no schematics in the shop manual) each relay controls the motion of the flap motor in one direction, and if a relay sticks (or arcs and welds itself) odd things will happen.
One of my partners in our SR20 had a flap failure during training (flaps would not extend, and the motor was running continuously) and I cut open the two relays after replacement. One of them had welded contacts, and the other showed signs of thermal distress.
According to the factory, flap relay failures are caused by reversing the direction of travel while the flaps are in motion. This damages the relays in such a way that they may fail much later. The flap relays are a weak spot in the design, regardless.
don’t think for a second I didn’t think of the 22 incident…good thing this happened immediately on the downwind and not started oscillating until 50 ft. before touchdown! This could slam ANYONE. if relays are the obvious problem…they should be corrected or changed…eventually any human will click through too fast…and cause a future problem…unknowingly.
Do you suppose the recent SR22 landing accident could have been caused by flap problems resulting in lack of control or too much speed?
I hate to sound like Jeff, but when I read postings like these I feel less sad about selling my deposit.
These troublesome nits are adding up. I’ve no doubt that Cirrus will solve every one of them in the fullness of time . . . but maybe, especially now that they have more money in the bank, they should take a deep breath and reorient toward QC instead of “one-per-day” volume.
Otherwise, buyers or insurers will rebel.
putting in 50% flaps ( about 110 indicated) on downwind yesterday morning…i felt an usual bunp and the plane started rocking (mildly) side to side as if i were in turbulence. the air ,however, was extremely smooth all morning. after a few seconds ‘wondering what was going on’ i noticed the LEFT FLAP was going ‘in and out’ repeatedly…i moved the switch to 100% …no help, same movement!. So i retracted them and landed with ‘no flaps’…no problem. after parking, they seem to work fine. but, i had a friend check them out last evening and he said they were acting as if their ‘wires were crossed’ up switch means down and vice versa…has this happened to anyone because my service dept. is 90 miles away. I can give the local mechanic a heads up monday morning or he just call service @ cirrus
thanks,
don
Do you suppose the recent SR22 landing accident could have been caused by flap problems resulting in lack of control or too much speed?
I would think that they were on a stable approach profile. So the answer to your question in my opinion is no…Ed
I hate to sound like Jeff, but when I read postings like these I feel less sad about selling my deposit.
These troublesome nits are adding up. I’ve no doubt that Cirrus will solve every one of them in the fullness of time . . . but maybe, especially now that they have more money in the bank, they should take a deep breath and reorient toward QC instead of “one-per-day” volume.
Otherwise, buyers or insurers will rebel.
putting in 50% flaps ( about 110 indicated) on downwind yesterday morning…i felt an usual bunp and the plane started rocking (mildly) side to side as if i were in turbulence. the air ,however, was extremely smooth all morning. after a few seconds ‘wondering what was going on’ i noticed the LEFT FLAP was going ‘in and out’ repeatedly…i moved the switch to 100% …no help, same movement!. So i retracted them and landed with ‘no flaps’…no problem. after parking, they seem to work fine. but, i had a friend check them out last evening and he said they were acting as if their ‘wires were crossed’ up switch means down and vice versa…has this happened to anyone because my service dept. is 90 miles away. I can give the local mechanic a heads up monday morning or he just call service @ cirrus
thanks,
don
that’s what mine were doing…"flapping up and down " on their own until the FINALYY retracted!
Don
Just a note.About the or near the 100th -20 we delivered had a severe inflight upset first flight due to a flap actuator gusset breaking loose.It holds the flap motor to the belly of the fuselage.Poor prep and bonding caused this.Rushing the job and being sloppy.Test pilot had a real tuff time controlling it as the flaps were on their own.I looked at the design and if it were mine I would install 2 bolts through the gusset instead of trusting the adhesive.It is a high stressed part.The employees were told to keep quiet on that deal. -jeff
that’s what mine were doing…"flapping up and down " on their own until the FINALYY retracted!
Don
God forbid that gusset let go on you.Word was the a/c with that failed entered a spin.The test pilot got a handle on it.That system is torque tube driven from that flap motor.If that gusset comes undone that’s all ya got.If those flaps do like you say move up and down on their own that can cause a flutter to result and the worst, separation of the flap surfaces.Have that looked at.Moving up and down freely could cause stress on the flap connection portion of the system.I think the design needs to be redone.Are they investigating it for you? all this my opinion.No facts from factory involved.
Clyde, is there just nothing we can do to get this ignorant trash off of this board?
that’s what mine were doing…"flapping up and down " on their own until the FINALYY retracted!
Don
God forbid that gusset let go on you.Word was the a/c with that failed entered a spin.The test pilot got a handle on it.That system is torque tube driven from that flap motor.If that gusset comes undone that’s all ya got.If those flaps do like you say move up and down on their own that can cause a flutter to result and the worst, separation of the flap surfaces.Have that looked at.Moving up and down freely could cause stress on the flap connection portion of the system.I think the design needs to be redone.Are they investigating it for you? all this my opinion.No facts from factory involved.
Clyde, is there just nothing we can do to get this ignorant trash off of this board?
I second the motion that, as an unfortunate exception to the “free speech” policy of this and most other boards, Clyde selectively block postings from “Jeff.”
Now, it would be the easiest thing in the world for Jeff to keep using a variety of different posting names, from “GlueDude” down to anything else that might pop into his mind, to avoid a plain old anti-“Jeff” filter. But I assume that Clyde has the ability that most other BBS services provide – that of tracing the machine from which the messages originate. I’m not putting my real name on this dispatch, but Clyde can quickly figure out exactly who’s posting it, because the origin data will match some other “real” postings I have put up here.
Now, depending on whether “Jeff” is posting from a permanent broadband connection or from a dial-up host (or some systems like AOL), it can be more or less obvious what the actual machine-origin of his postings is. But I would imagine Clyde has enough evidence to recognize “Jeff” postings – either by the machine data if it’s a broadband or network connection, or by other patterns associated in the case of dialup connections – and either filter them out or quickly remove them.
What is the principle that would justify blocking here? It is ACCOUNTABILITY for one’s views. If Jeff wants to use a real name, that’s great. Otherwise it’s anonymous rumor-mongering.
Second best alternative is an informal alliance to act as if anonymous, Jeff type posts are invisible and not to be responded to.
Jeff is well known to the Duluth police and to the social-service and mental health agencies there. They were happy to get him a custodial job at Cirrus on rehabilitative release, and to find him lodging in a halfway house, after his latest incarceration. Now they are taking steps to re-institutionalize him. They apologize for any damage he may have done or false information he may have spread.
[HI THERE JEFF How do you like the anonymous-smear tactic being applied to you? I have no idea whether any of this is true – just as I have no idea how true anything you say is.]
It might be time for the “Cirrus Flyers Association” to start charging dues and verifying members’ names and e-mail addresses. This forum is my most frequently checked web-site bar none. Keeping this site humming is certainly not free. So why not charge dues and incidentally verify that each of us is who he says he is?
For example, while waiting for SR22 #95, I rent Cardinal RGs from two local flying clubs. Keeping up on all things Cardinal-related is important to me. Therefore, I subscribe to www.cardinalflyers.com. The cost is eminently reasonable: $34 /year. All e-mail digest postings are from members.
A membership organization would still allow a Cirrus insider to get information to us all on an anonymous basis. We are fortunate to have at least two actual journalists as active members of this forum. They certainly know how to keep a confidence, while vetting an anonymous source’s credibility.
Ok guys.This is my last post.I don’t mean to disturb anything.I hope it all works for you.Sorry clyde for getting these fellas razzled.Take care, -jeff
Ok guys.This is my last post.I don’t mean to disturb anything.I hope it all works for you.Sorry clyde for getting these fellas razzled.Take care, -jeff
Got you, guys, didn’t I! I’ve changed my mind and think Ill hang around for a while.Stay tuned for more inside tips. -jeff
[Note: this is a fake posting to illustrate the “who is Jeff” problem. But there is no way of knowing whether the previous “last message” posting is any more genuine.]