Diesel Engines

For those who are interested, Socata has added a line of production diesel aircraft to its site (not yet available for purchase or delivery, as far as I can tell). The engine was developed by Morane Renault. It has 3000 hr TBO, RPM of 2000, and runs on Jet-A. Here is the URL:

http://www.socataaircraft.com/us/gammes/ngamme/ms250ang.htm

I have been awaiting the availability of a diesel in a Cirrus SR2x for my probably once in a lifetime aircraft purchase… I don’t know how far along TCM is in their diesel program, but I hope Cirrus is not married to TCM for all their future engine choices, but would instead evaluate available engines on their merits.

Best of the holidays, and health in the new year to all.

Robert

For those who are interested, Socata has added a line of production diesel aircraft to its site (not yet available for purchase or delivery, as far as I can tell). The engine was developed by Morane Renault. It has 3000 hr TBO, RPM of 2000, and runs on Jet-A. Here is the URL:

http://www.socataaircraft.com/us/gammes/ngamme/ms250ang.htm

I have been awaiting the availability of a diesel in a Cirrus SR2x for my probably once in a lifetime aircraft purchase… I don’t know how far along TCM is in their diesel program, but I hope Cirrus is not married to TCM for all their future engine choices, but would instead evaluate available engines on their merits.

Best of the holidays, and health in the new year to all.

Robert

Hi Robert,

The engines are already available in France. They make 3 versions, and fully electronic controls.

The following article is from April in '97, from R&D magazine in France.

"On the strength of know-how acquired in Formula One, Renault Sport has developed the MR, a light aircraft engine, in the space just one year. It will be produced by a jointly-owned Renault Sport and Aerospatiale subsidiary. Far removed from Formula One V10 engines, the aircraft engine developed by Renault Sport was designed to meet the stringent specification of Socata, the Airospatiale subsidiary that manufactures the Tampico and Epsilon light propeller-driven aircraft. The product is aimed at breaking the market stranglehold of US aircraft engine manufacturers, whose engines run on costly and poorly distributed aviation fuel. The MR is fuelled by kerosene, which costs three times less and can be supplied via direct injection, a guarantee of engine efficiency. The price of a flying hour has nosedived All MR components are entirely new. The 5 litre flat four-cylinder air cooled engine is turbo-charged and will come in 180, 250 and 300 bhp versions. It delivers 70% of its power at 25,000 feet, as compared to 40% for its normally aspirated competitors. Since it runs slowly, it is eight times quieter than they are, generating 10 dB less, and will meet projected anti-noise regulation standards in various European countries, including France, Germany and Austria. The MR is controlled with “fly-by-wire” electronics of the same type as the F1 accelerator. A single lever controls the propeller operation, load and pitch. It is so reliable that overhauls can be spaced at 3,000 flying-hours instead of 2,000 hour intervals. This is a major purchase argument, as engines must currently be sent to the United States for maintenance at a cost of about FRF 100,000. An engine is the most expensive component in the cost of a light aircraft. Thanks to the various MR innovations, the price of a flying hour should come down by at least 50%. This factor may help turn around the light aircraft market, currently in severe recession. The engine will be produced at Viry-Chbtillon, outside Paris, by the Sociiti de Motorisation Aironautique, a 50-50 subsidiary of Renault Sport and Airospatiale. The first aircraft to be fitted with the 250 bhp version of the MR will roll out from Socata in late 1998, with the 180 bhp and 300 bhp versions awaited in 1999. Their benefits should make them strong contenders on a market which every year accounts for about 500 engines in this category. "

Maybe this will be a viable option on the SR2x.

The engines are already available in France.

I am not sure if the engine is certified in Europe yet, but it is not in the US. Furthermore, it will initially be marketed in Europe only, and Cirrus have said they will not begin development work on using this engine until it is certified in the US, and it will not be offered as an option until there is a service network in the US. So it is likely to be several years before you see a Cirrus with this engine (the Continental Diesel is likely to take even longer).

There are a number of issues to be solved before it can be used in a plane like the SR20, e.g. the fuel tanks will have to be combined so that you cannot run a tank dry (if a Diesel gets air in the injection lines, it cannot be restarted).

Cirrus have said they will definitely be looking at using the Renault engine, but not until it is feasible to do so.

They make 3 versions, and fully electronic controls.

I’ll be interested to see if the engine controls are electronic - unlike an avgas engine, there is no mixture control so much of the reason for having electronic control is removed.

The engines are already available in France.

I am not sure if the engine is certified in Europe yet, but it is not in the US. Furthermore, it will initially be marketed in Europe only, and Cirrus have said they will not begin development work on using this engine until it is certified in the US, and it will not be offered as an option until there is a service network in the US. So it is likely to be several years before you see a Cirrus with this engine (the Continental Diesel is likely to take even longer).

There are a number of issues to be solved before it can be used in a plane like the SR20, e.g. the fuel tanks will have to be combined so that you cannot run a tank dry (if a Diesel gets air in the injection lines, it cannot be restarted).

Cirrus have said they will definitely be looking at using the Renault engine, but not until it is feasible to do so.

They make 3 versions, and fully electronic controls.

I’ll be interested to see if the engine controls are electronic - unlike an avgas engine, there is no mixture control so much of the reason for having electronic control is removed.

Socata is flying 2 aircraft in Europe with these new engines already, so they must have them certified. www.socataaircraft.com

Hi Michael,

The pictures you’re seeing on their web page is just the spec sheet of upcoming Trinidad models. The engine is not certified yet, it was supposed to be before the end of this year, so they must be very close. The new Renault-Morane diesel will be sold in Cirri? only in Europe once the engine becomes available. At least these were the plans a couple of months ago, they might have changed in the meantime.

Placido

The engines are already available in France.

I am not sure if the engine is certified in Europe yet, but it is not in the US. Furthermore, it will initially be marketed in Europe only, and Cirrus have said they will not begin development work on using this engine until it is certified in the US, and it will not be offered as an option until there is a service network in the US. So it is likely to be several years before you see a Cirrus with this engine (the Continental Diesel is likely to take even longer).

There are a number of issues to be solved before it can be used in a plane like the SR20, e.g. the fuel tanks will have to be combined so that you cannot run a tank dry (if a Diesel gets air in the injection lines, it cannot be restarted).

Cirrus have said they will definitely be looking at using the Renault engine, but not until it is feasible to do so.

They make 3 versions, and fully electronic controls.

I’ll be interested to see if the engine controls are electronic - unlike an avgas engine, there is no mixture control so much of the reason for having electronic control is removed.

Socata is flying 2 aircraft in Europe with these new engines already, so they must have them certified. www.socataaircraft.com

Hi Michael,

The pictures you’re seeing on their web page is just the spec sheet of upcoming Trinidad models. The engine is not certified yet, it was supposed to be before the end of this year, so they must be very close. The new Renault-Morane diesel will be sold in Cirri? only in Europe once the engine becomes available. At least these were the plans a couple of months ago, they might have changed in the meantime.

Placido

Hi Placido,

According to Socata, they are flying 2 models with the Morane Renault engines now. The MS300 Epsilon MK2 is a tandem 2 seater fully aerobatic plane available now, in France.

The engines are already available in France.

I am not sure if the engine is certified in Europe yet, but it is not in the US. Furthermore, it will initially be marketed in Europe only, and Cirrus have said they will not begin development work on using this engine until it is certified in the US, and it will not be offered as an option until there is a service network in the US. So it is likely to be several years before you see a Cirrus with this engine (the Continental Diesel is likely to take even longer).

There are a number of issues to be solved before it can be used in a plane like the SR20, e.g. the fuel tanks will have to be combined so that you cannot run a tank dry (if a Diesel gets air in the injection lines, it cannot be restarted).

Cirrus have said they will definitely be looking at using the Renault engine, but not until it is feasible to do so.

They make 3 versions, and fully electronic controls.

I’ll be interested to see if the engine controls are electronic - unlike an avgas engine, there is no mixture control so much of the reason for having electronic control is removed.

Socata is flying 2 aircraft in Europe with these new engines already, so they must have them certified. www.socataaircraft.com

According to Socata, they are flying 2 models with the Morane Renault engines now.

Actually, the Socata web site lists at least 3 aircraft with Diesel engines - the MS180, MS250 and MS300. The first two are stated as “certified to FAR part 23 with amendments 1 through 16” however a check of the FAA web site does not reveal any type certificates for these models. The engine manufacturer is given as “Société de Motorisations Aéronautiques” but the FAA has no engine type certificates listed for that company at all.

So, the FAR 23 status is most likely anticipated rather than actual. The MS300 appears to be intended as a military trainer, so Socata may not plan to have it certified (not required for military use).

Unless there has been a European type certificate issued, the MR Diesel engines remain uncertified, and therefore so does any aircraft using them. And even then, Cirrus won’t be offering them until they are supported in the USA, which is likely to be a couple of years off at least. So don’t hold your breath.

I, like everyone else, would dearly love to see these engines in a Cirrus airframe, but it ain’t gonna happen anytime soon!

Hi Michael,

I have not found any info on their web page that says that the airplanes are available in France. I have looked through their new section and I haven’t found any info of a European certification, but what I HAVE found is a reference to future models, which are the ones you indicated.

Here’s the URL:

http://www.socata.com/us/gammes/ngamme/Default.asp.htm

Hope this helps.

Placido

Hi Michael,

The pictures you’re seeing on their web page is just the spec sheet of upcoming Trinidad models. The engine is not certified yet, it was supposed to be before the end of this year, so they must be very close. The new Renault-Morane diesel will be sold in Cirri? only in Europe once the engine becomes available. At least these were the plans a couple of months ago, they might have changed in the meantime.

Placido

Hi Placido,

According to Socata, they are flying 2 models with the Morane Renault engines now. The MS300 Epsilon MK2 is a tandem 2 seater fully aerobatic plane available now, in France.

The engines are already available in France.

I am not sure if the engine is certified in Europe yet, but it is not in the US. Furthermore, it will initially be marketed in Europe only, and Cirrus have said they will not begin development work on using this engine until it is certified in the US, and it will not be offered as an option until there is a service network in the US. So it is likely to be several years before you see a Cirrus with this engine (the Continental Diesel is likely to take even longer).

There are a number of issues to be solved before it can be used in a plane like the SR20, e.g. the fuel tanks will have to be combined so that you cannot run a tank dry (if a Diesel gets air in the injection lines, it cannot be restarted).

Cirrus have said they will definitely be looking at using the Renault engine, but not until it is feasible to do so.

They make 3 versions, and fully electronic controls.

I’ll be interested to see if the engine controls are electronic - unlike an avgas engine, there is no mixture control so much of the reason for having electronic control is removed.

Socata is flying 2 aircraft in Europe with these new engines already, so they must have them certified. www.socataaircraft.com

Hi Michael,

I have not found any info on their web page that says that the airplanes are available in France. I have looked through their new section and I haven’t found any info of a European certification, but what I HAVE found is a reference to future models, which are the ones you indicated.

Here’s the URL:

http://www.socata.com/us/gammes/ngamme/Default.asp.htm

Hope this helps.

Placido

Hi Placido,

Actually you were not looking the French website of Socata. Like Clyde is writing they have 3 certified planes to FAR Part 23. The sorry state is that they are NOT AVAILABLE HERE, yet. And the engines are not available here, yet. Which is what I wrote originally. Morane Renault have succeded in certifying their engines in Europe and they are flying on Socata airframes. BUT, I have a feeling, once they are shaken out there, they will be heading here. There are an awful lot of old AND new airframes that wil beg for a diesel, especially after our 100LL will not be available.

Michael

Hi Michael,

The pictures you’re seeing on their web page is just the spec sheet of upcoming Trinidad models. The engine is not certified yet, it was supposed to be before the end of this year, so they must be very close. The new Renault-Morane diesel will be sold in Cirri? only in Europe once the engine becomes available. At least these were the plans a couple of months ago, they might have changed in the meantime.

Placido

Hi Placido,

According to Socata, they are flying 2 models with the Morane Renault engines now. The MS300 Epsilon MK2 is a tandem 2 seater fully aerobatic plane available now, in France.

The engines are already available in France.

I am not sure if the engine is certified in Europe yet, but it is not in the US. Furthermore, it will initially be marketed in Europe only, and Cirrus have said they will not begin development work on using this engine until it is certified in the US, and it will not be offered as an option until there is a service network in the US. So it is likely to be several years before you see a Cirrus with this engine (the Continental Diesel is likely to take even longer).

There are a number of issues to be solved before it can be used in a plane like the SR20, e.g. the fuel tanks will have to be combined so that you cannot run a tank dry (if a Diesel gets air in the injection lines, it cannot be restarted).

Cirrus have said they will definitely be looking at using the Renault engine, but not until it is feasible to do so.

They make 3 versions, and fully electronic controls.

I’ll be interested to see if the engine controls are electronic - unlike an avgas engine, there is no mixture control so much of the reason for having electronic control is removed.

Socata is flying 2 aircraft in Europe with these new engines already, so they must have them certified. www.socataaircraft.com

Hi Michael,

Could you provide me the french URL. I’d appreciate it very much. Thanks for your help.

This of course interests me very much as I am based in Switzerland.

Cheers,

Placido

Hi Michael,

I have not found any info on their web page that says that the airplanes are available in France. I have looked through their new section and I haven’t found any info of a European certification, but what I HAVE found is a reference to future models, which are the ones you indicated.

Here’s the URL:

http://www.socata.com/us/gammes/ngamme/Default.asp.htm

Hope this helps.

Placido

Hi Placido,

Actually you were not looking the French website of Socata. Like Clyde is writing they have 3 certified planes to FAR Part 23. The sorry state is that they are NOT AVAILABLE HERE, yet. And the engines are not available here, yet. Which is what I wrote originally. Morane Renault have succeded in certifying their engines in Europe and they are flying on Socata airframes. BUT, I have a feeling, once they are shaken out there, they will be heading here. There are an awful lot of old AND new airframes that wil beg for a diesel, especially after our 100LL will not be available.

Michael

Hi Michael,

The pictures you’re seeing on their web page is just the spec sheet of upcoming Trinidad models. The engine is not certified yet, it was supposed to be before the end of this year, so they must be very close. The new Renault-Morane diesel will be sold in Cirri? only in Europe once the engine becomes available. At least these were the plans a couple of months ago, they might have changed in the meantime.

Placido

Hi Placido,

According to Socata, they are flying 2 models with the Morane Renault engines now. The MS300 Epsilon MK2 is a tandem 2 seater fully aerobatic plane available now, in France.

The engines are already available in France.

I am not sure if the engine is certified in Europe yet, but it is not in the US. Furthermore, it will initially be marketed in Europe only, and Cirrus have said they will not begin development work on using this engine until it is certified in the US, and it will not be offered as an option until there is a service network in the US. So it is likely to be several years before you see a Cirrus with this engine (the Continental Diesel is likely to take even longer).

There are a number of issues to be solved before it can be used in a plane like the SR20, e.g. the fuel tanks will have to be combined so that you cannot run a tank dry (if a Diesel gets air in the injection lines, it cannot be restarted).

Cirrus have said they will definitely be looking at using the Renault engine, but not until it is feasible to do so.

They make 3 versions, and fully electronic controls.

I’ll be interested to see if the engine controls are electronic - unlike an avgas engine, there is no mixture control so much of the reason for having electronic control is removed.

Socata is flying 2 aircraft in Europe with these new engines already, so they must have them certified. www.socataaircraft.com