collision avoidance systems.

I have no interest in any company. I do take great interest in new avionics technology, and have been an avid member of IEEE for many more years than I care to remember. I did however have an oppertunity to speak with the CEO of SureCheck briefly, and leanred a great deal about the reality behind monroy and Aviation consumer. There is a bias which not many people know about, and you should weigh this in. The editor, Jonathan Spencer, who did a review on the trafficscope said that the trafficscope performed better, and had more features than the Monroy. However, later the editor Paul Bertorelli came back to add the title “razor thin edge”

Paul is a south Florida Mooney pilot who shares many interests including the Mooney Owners Association social organization with Jose Monroy, who makes the ATD. He also, I believe, is a co-owner of a Mooney mod shop which helps Mooney pilots get special modification performed, as well as performing annual inspections and what-not. Jose Monroy just “happens” to make Mooney long Range Fuel tanks. If you look back in history, Paul in the past 8 years has never given a good word about Surecheck since they developed anti-collision avoidance products, and has always praised Jose Monroy, no matter how basement-style his products have become. I attended AEA this year, and in speaking with a couple other avionics producers, they have also echoed the same ideal that it is best to “make friends” with Paul Bertorelli if you want a good review against your competitors. I find it disappointing that he chooses his stature to gain personal benefit or help promote his fellow pilots, however there are unbiased editors who did compare the two and found the trafficscope to be a better choice. All one needs to do is fly with both devices as I did and see the difference. The Monroy just doesn’t stack up at all. As far as the Proxalarm I don’t know anything more than they are based out of France and it is very difficult to get any information.

As far as my posts, I am new, and do plan to purchase a pre-owned SR-22 (Fiance permitting :wink:

In reply to:


I have no interest in any company. I do take great interest in new avionics technology, and have been an avid member of IEEE for many more years than I care to remember. I did however have an oppertunity to speak with the CEO of SureCheck briefly, and leanred a great deal about the reality behind monroy and Aviation consumer. There is a bias which not many people know about, and you should weigh this in. The editor, Jonathan Spencer, who did a review on the trafficscope said that the trafficscope performed better, and had more features than the Monroy. However, later the editor Paul Bertorelli came back to add the title “razor thin edge”
Paul is a south Florida Mooney pilot who shares many interests including the Mooney Owners Association social organization with Jose Monroy, who makes the ATD. He also, I believe, is a co-owner of a Mooney mod shop which helps Mooney pilots get special modification performed, as well as performing annual inspections and what-not. Jose Monroy just “happens” to make Mooney long Range Fuel tanks. If you look back in history, Paul in the past 8 years has never given a good word about Surecheck since they developed anti-collision avoidance products, and has always praised Jose Monroy, no matter how basement-style his products have become. I attended AEA this year, and in speaking with a couple other avionics producers, they have also echoed the same ideal that it is best to “make friends” with Paul Bertorelli if you want a good review against your competitors. I find it disappointing that he chooses his stature to gain personal benefit or help promote his fellow pilots, however there are unbiased editors who did compare the two and found the trafficscope to be a better choice. All one needs to do is fly with both devices as I did and see the difference. The Monroy just doesn’t stack up at all. As far as the Proxalarm I don’t know anything more than they are based out of France and it is very difficult to get any information.
As far as my posts, I am new, and do plan to purchase a pre-owned SR-22 (Fiance permitting :wink:


Fixdgear(sorry I did not get your name or email)
Av. Consumer did in fact have many good things to say about the Trafficscope as well as Monroy 300 and Proxalert R5. I can only go by my experiences with both Surecheck and Monroy as well as reviews in Aviation Consumer and Eastern Avionics. I do not quite accept the conspiricy theory you put forth but again I may be wrong. I did get your bio. but still do not know WHO you are. Who are these editors that reviewed both units you refer to? This is my last post on this subject and I do hope you get your Cirrus.
my name Don Kusenberger
N41XP SR22 ‘B’
for all interested: www.monroyaero.com
surecheck.net (ask for fixdgear?)
Proxalert R5 (see at eastern aero at
www.avionix.com)

fixdgear –

Allow me to correct a few misimpressions here. I’m in a good position to understand the situation since I wrote the article reviewing the traffic devices for Aviation Consumer.

First of all, I did not say that the SureCheck TrafficScope performed better. This misimpression has become widespread because SureCheck has misquoted the article on their website and refused to change it despite Aviation Consumer’s efforts to get them to correct it. In the article, I listed a number of features that the SureCheck has and the Monroy does not (the local altitude reference and battery power among others) and noted that these extras add $400 to the price. I then said that “If that capability is important to you or you can’t run on ship’s power alone, the SureCheck TrafficScope is the better choice, in our view.” SureCheck’s “quote” of this is “TrafficScope is the better choice, in our view.” This is a little like taking a movie review that says “if you like blood and guts this is the movie of the year” and quoting it to say “This is the movie of the year.”

The most unfortunate part of this is that the article said some quite complimentary things about the TrafficScope (and I have to take issue with your statement that Aviation Consumer has never had a good thing to say about SureCheck products – if you re-read the article you will see that we had quite a bit good to say about the TrafficScope). Sadly, instead of honestly quoting the positive things we said, SureCheck decided to be dishonest and misquote the article. This dishonesty in advertising makes me, at least, wonder about their honesty in dealing with their customers.

Let me straighten out a few more details: (1) While I did not say that the TrafficScope performed better, I did admit it had more features – at a price – and suggested that if you wanted those features and thought they were worth the price you should buy it. (2) Paul and I did not disagree on which unit was better. In fact, we flew all the tests together and came to a consensus on the conclusions in the article. (3) The words “Razor Thin” were, in fact Paul’s. It is SOP in the magazine business that the writer suggests a headline and the editor (almost always) revises it and runs it by the writer for agreement before publication. This is what happened in this case and I thought his wording for the head characterized our conclusions very well (I’m not proud – Paul is generally better at writing heads than I am).

As for electronics manufacturers claiming that you get a better review by getting friendly with Paul Bertorelli, my only comment is that it sounds suspiciously like sour grapes. Aviation Consumer’s claim to uniqueness is their lack of bias. It’s existence is based on that. Paul is not an unaware person – I find it very hard to believe he would accept some short-term gain in exchange for a threat to his livelihood. And in my experience, at least, he has always been one of the fiercest proponents of accurate and fair reporting in journalism.

A couple of additional points: Judging traffic devices by flying with each for a while is not a good way to judge them because you have no reliable reference. If the device doesn’t point out some traffic and ATC doesn’t mention it and you don’t see it, you have no way of knowing the numbers of the “ones that got away.” We used a TIS display that shows traffic based on an uplink from ATC radar, so we knew where the traffic was and could compare it accurately against what each device displayed (it also let us compare real distance with the distance displayed on the devices). We also had both devices looking at the same traffic at the same time in the same airplane.

Using that arrangement, we found that the Monroy was slightly better at reporting traffic than the TrafficScope. That does not mean that the Monroy was perfect by any means. Both were almost totally blind to traffic ahead and below, and seeing opposite-direction 737 traffic a mile away and only 500 feet beneath us while both traffic devices remained silent was a sobering experience (fortunately the 737 had us on TCAS, we had him on TIS, and we were both talking to the same controller).

I hope this clears up some of the misunderstanding. Note, by the way, that Paul reviewed the ProxAlert R5 in the June issue of Aviation Consumer and found he liked it better than either the Monroy or the SureCheck, although it too had some of the shortcomings of the others, like some blind spots. After we were unable to get a ProxAlert unit in time for our original article, we lectured ProxAlert on the basics of marketing in the US (it is a French company). To their credit, they took our criticism to heart and shaped up significantly, so the unit is now available directly from them through their Phoenix office and their website.

Jon

Fixed Gear:

One of the COPA owners has made me aware of your posting.
I don’t know who you are but you claim to know all about me. Since much of what’s in your post appears to be fabricated, please allow me to set the record straight.

As far as I know, Jonathan Spencer and I did not consult you when we were doing the testing of the Monroy and SureCheck devices. He and I did the research together and drew the conclusion together. You claim Spencer said the TrafficScope performed better and that I changed the conclusion to give Monroy the edge. This conversation did not happen and is an utter fabrication.

Your post indicates I am “co-owner of a Mooney mod shop.”
Another fabrication, I’m afraid. I have no interest or association with any kind of mod shop, Mooney or otherwise.

You say I share the “Mooney Owners Association social organization with Jose Monroy.” Sorry, another falsehood. I don’t know about Jose Monroy but I am a member of neither MAPA nor MOA, although I have written occasionally for the MOA magazine.

My last communication with Jose Monroy was an e-mail on April 14th, in which he complained that we showed an unfair bias in favor of SureCheck. Go figure.

You claim that avionics manufacturers have to “make friends with me” is ludicrous at best and, at worst, is damaging to my reputation and the generally high regard that Aviation Consumer enjoys because of its honesty and fairness. I’ve been doing this job for 10 years and have always addressed complaints of bias. I have enough good sources in the avionics industry to say your claim doesn’t past the smell test.

Last, you maintain we’ve never said anything good about SureCheck. How, then, do you explain that on the SureCheck Web site you’ll find a number of glowing quotes from Aviation Consumer about the TrafficScope. For reasons that continue to baffle me, SureCheck’s Web site says that Aviation Consumer picked the TrafficScope over the Monroy ATD300 when, in fact, the reverse is true. We have asked SureCheck to correct this distortion. They have declined.

As an editor, I’ve developed a thick skin. Every month in Aviation Consumer, I print letters stating opinions that don’t agree with ours. I usually ignore the noise on newsgroups. However, I find it difficult to tolerate posts that are as riddled with errors and falsehoods as yours is.

I’m signing my post with my real name and my real e-mail address. It would be interesting if you would do the same.

Paul Bertorelli
Editor, Aviation Consumer
avconsumer@comcast.net

surecheck.net (ask for fixdgear?)”

Sorry, I don’t work there. I just happen to be someone who bought a monroy, had to return it for inaccuracy, and now have a trafficscope that is IMHO much more accurate than the monroy. I have talked to Surecheck a couple times and have had really great conversations dealing with their products, the dishonest marketing practices of their competitors, and about aviation in general. There is nothing more to it that that. I do however plan to meet them in person at this year’s Oshkosh. I just think they are a really down-to-earth small company who makes some really great products, and who share a big interest in aviation overall that I and many others do.

I have been a reader of Aviation Consumer for a long time. I find Paul’s editorial fairness to be to top notch.
In fact, I have now become a lifetime subscriber of Aviation Consumer because I think this publication is TOTALLY unbiased in any form and it is one of the only forums where we truly get a fair assessment of ANY of the multitude of products out there.
This is a first rate publication. For anyone to criticize an entity such as this without even admitting who they are is very inappropriate; in my opinion.
Keep up the good work Paul!

“One of the COPA owners has made me aware of your posting.”

I am not surprised in the least that upon learning of a doubting customer of the Monroy you did leap to respond. It seems, as history will dictate, that you usually will.

Again, I have stated before that I am a friend of surecheck’s CEO and am not ashamed to admit such. He is an accomplished man in the world of aviation. Even as you so carefully attempt to discredit his company, in your publication, he has continued to strive.

You have your opinion, that is fine…your opinion is still not the end-all by all means. I seriously doubt that you can shut down this company with a occasional slam, or even a monthly article of distaste. There are too many pilots like myself who recognize their quality to just run to your likings in haste.

For the record I have flown with both devices and couldn’t disagree with you more. Again, Mr. Spencer aside, I can not locate anywhere where you talk positively about surecheck, yet you consistently glow about the monroy which you claim to have no lean towards. Considering surecheck’s accomplishments, I find this highly suspicious. I am not alone in my opinion either. There are a number of pilots I converse with regularly who actually admit to buying just the opposite of your recommendation, based on experience and difference of opinion. I will often hear the phrase “If he had only done more research”

You can toss this advice aside or take it to heart, either way I am only expressing my opinions based on what I have learned and the people I trust.

Luke Myers
Fort Lauderdale, FL

In reply to:


“One of the COPA owners has made me aware of your posting.”
I am not surprised in the least that upon learning of a doubting customer of the Monroy you did leap to respond. It seems, as history will dictate, that you usually will.
Again, I have stated before that I am a friend of surecheck’s CEO and am not ashamed to admit such. He is an accomplished man in the world of aviation. Even as you so carefully attempt to discredit his company, in your publication, he has continued to strive.
You have your opinion, that is fine…your opinion is still not the end-all by all means. I seriously doubt that you can shut down this company with a occasional slam, or even a monthly article of distaste. There are too many pilots like myself who recognize their quality to just run to your likings in haste.
For the record I have flown with both devices and couldn’t disagree with you more. Again, Mr. Spencer aside, I can not locate anywhere where you talk positively about surecheck, yet you consistently glow about the monroy which you claim to have no lean towards. Considering surecheck’s accomplishments, I find this highly suspicious. I am not alone in my opinion either. There are a number of pilots I converse with regularly who actually admit to buying just the opposite of your recommendation, based on experience and difference of opinion. I will often hear the phrase “If he had only done more research”
You can toss this advice aside or take it to heart, either way I am only expressing my opinions based on what I have learned and the people I trust.
Luke Myers
Fort Lauderdale, FL


Fixdgear,
I am the COPA member who notified Aviation Consumer of your posts. I am NOT a doubting customer of Monroy. Forgive me if I missed it but where before your latest post, did you admit to being a friend of the Surechecks CEO? Before when I asked if you had a bias-you admited none. Note that only you have “slammed” competing products (Monroy) and are guilty of what you are accusing Aviation Consumer. I asked anyone to read the article in Av. Consumer to see how absurd fixdgears accusations are.
Don Kusenberger
N41XP SR22

Even as you so carefully attempt to discredit his company, in your publication, he has continued to strive.<<

I think I see the problem, Luke. You obviously haven’t read the article and appear to be relying on third-party information for what it actually said. Here, for your edification and to correct the misimpressions you continue to foster, is the complete conclusion:

The following is excerpted with permission from Aviation Consumer magazine. It originally appeared in the April, 2004 issue.

Conclusion
For the price—$800 to $1200 depending on which unit you select—the portables strike us as cheap insurance against a mid-air collision or near miss.
But you get what you pay for. DonÂ’t expect either unit to find all the traffic. Both will miss lots of targets, especially those ahead and below the aircraft. And once you start installing one of these in a panel using an external antenna, you could nearly double the cost.
In adding all these numbers up, refer to the chart on page 6 which compares prices on all the current offerings across all price ranges. With the Garmin Mode-S based TIS available for about $5000, owners will need to put a sharp pencil on the decision to go down market with a portable. But the $5000 applies only if you already have a GNS430 or 530 in the panel. And maybe you donÂ’t want to spend that much on traffic gear and the portable suits your needs.
Which is best? Both are improved over previous models and we donÂ’t think youÂ’ll go wrong with either, keeping in mind that this technology has sharp limitations. We give a razor-thin edge to the Monroy ATD-300. ItÂ’s $400 cheaper than the SureCheck, has a lower profile on the panel and a simpler, easier-to-read display.
Our impression is that the ATD-300 more often saw traffic that the SureCheck missed but, to be fair, the performance of both units is strongly influenced by antenna position. For the extra $400, the SureCheck gives you the ability to run on batteries and has the onboard altitude sensor, neither of which the Monroy has.
As noted, this allows the SureCheck to make relative altitude determinations when the host aircraft Mode-C isnÂ’t available, which appears to be the case about 20 percent of the time for reasons that arenÂ’t clear.
If that capability is important to you or you canÂ’t run on shipÂ’s power alone, the SureCheck TrafficScope is the better choice, in our view. In any case, we think SureCheck deserves kudos for dramatically improving its product over the previous iteration and we give the company high marks for much improved customer and technical support.

In reply to:


You can toss this advice aside or take it to heart, either way I am only expressing my opinions based on what I have learned and the people I trust.


Thanks. That helps.

I went back and read all of this thread, checked out the SureCheck web site, and concluded that I’ll toss your advice aside.

By the way, seems to me that SureCheck and Monroy marketing and sales seem to have about as good a relationship as Lancair and Cirrus. For the record, I prefer and do business with folks who demonstrate integrity in their own products and don’t knock the competition.

Thanks to COPA and Aviation Consumer for reviving this discussion. Appreciate your efforts to present a more complete record of the discussion.

Cheers
Rick

Jaap,
The proxalert does display traffic transponder codes. Check out www.proxalert.com for product details. Hope that helps.
Don Kusenberger
N41XP SR22