Did I mention I was up for adoption[:D]
If you don’t hiss at our friends, shit on the floor, or scratch up the furniture, you’re in consideration! [:P]
I will be on my best behavior until it comes time to give your wife the right seat[;)]
Thanks! They already did it on my delivery day before I picked it up.
I did. It’s absolutely ludicrous! As for the fit and finish I’m extremely surprised at how well it’s done. Much better than the BMW M series and Audi’s I’ve had. Worst was my GTR.
I know right! What the heck is it with my posts? Makes me think of this thread … Creating Traffic. The #'s have to be triple now and that’s not a good thing, or at least I’m not sure.
Jason,
you state…We have relatively low tax rates compared with US history. Just a fact.
As this discussion seems settled on federal tax, your statement is not correct. until 1913 there was no federal tax, and here is an inflation adjusted summary to 2013 dollars to show the tax rate in 1939.
Married Filing Jointly Marginal Tax Brackets
Tax Rate
8.0% $66,070
9.0% $99,105
10.0% $132,140
11.0% $165,176
12.0% $198,211
13.0% $231,246
15.0% $264,281
while the highest rate in 1939 was 79%, you had to make $82M in today’s dollars to pay that. Three years later during the war, the bracket increased to 88% and the income required to pay that was reduced by $80M to about $2.5M.
The 1913 rates looked like this
2.0% 3.0% 4.0%. 5.0% 6.0%. 7.0%
$463,826 $1,159,566 $1,739,348 $2,319,131 $5,797,828 $11,595,657
so over $11M the tax was 7%
for the 137 years before that there was no federal ncome tax.
after WWII, tax rates increased to over 90%. in the 70’s the highest bracket was reduced to 50% and then in the 80’s to the high 30’s which is where it remains, though the income required to get to the highest bracket today is within about $50k from 20 years ago, in 2013 dollars. But remember when the brackets were 90% or 70% there were all sorts of accelerated cost recovery that have been eliminated.
So out of our country’s 240 years, perhaps 20% of our history has reflected higher taxes the remaining 80% has had lower taxes.
I get a kick out of a couple of my friends who argue the tax rate is too low. I remind them that the Government will gladly take any additional money they provide it if they really feel the need to give more. not one has done so. and anyone who doesn’t feel Ryan should take the $7,500 credit can kick in the $7,500 for him if they feel strongly about it
I don’t depreciate my plane because it is not a business tool, but I depreciate new computers for the office, as I’m sure you do as well. And we take interest deductions, and other legitimate business deductions. as we should.
t
Well OK tom. Let’s start with depreciation. You own a company and buy a computer. You incur that expense today, but the IRS requires you to parse it out over the life of the computer. That isn’t a “credit” or “gift” from the IRS, but rather a limitation on what you can deduct as a business expense when determining what your taxable profit is. Ryan gets $7,500 as a gift for buying a Tesla. The tax credit is a vehicle for giving him this money, instead of writing him a check to the same effect. So let’s not confuse depreciation, which is an accounting tool to increase taxable profits, with a tax credit, which is a payment to the recipient from the treasury. All a section 179 deduction does is allow you to recognize the expense of the computer when you pay it instead of spreading it out. I’m fine with that.
Let’s return to the issue though. The federal government borrowed an additional $7,500 and gave it to someone who bought a car for $142,000. Thankfully, we can finance that borrowing at abnormally low rates, but we, America, owe it to someone. This has no connection to the accounting of business expenses to determine taxable profits.
Yes, in times irrelevant to today, American tax rates have been lower than they are now. And more recently, and relevantly, they have been higher. Whatever you think of our current tax rates, you must agree they fall short. We have an annual deficit of about $500 Billion. The only solution I can abide is constrained spending. I doubt you really feel comfortable with your usurious taxes being paid to Ryan. We don’t blame Ryan for taking the money; we can blame our government for giving it.
Our national debt is a bit bigger than our GDP. Greece’s is 1.6x GDP. Instructive. Even if giving Tesla buyers money is a good idea, giving money we don’t have is a bad idea. If you believe taxes are already too high, demand spending cuts. If T Bond yields get to about 5%, move to Switzerland.
This thought of $7500 being borrowed by the US to pay a new Tesla owner makes sense - as to object to.
Perhaps we should begin the debate of how states are losing revenue (massive) on loss fuel tax… We all know this will only turn ugly as the number of people going electric increases and the govt loses a tax base…
Tesla is making the cars more affordable (not Ryan’s Ludicrous model) and the wealthy is dumping 5 years of pre owned to get the Ryan Ludicrous model $142k … Fast forward 3 years!!! Los Angeles fuel is $1 in taxes per gal (goes to state and fed)…
Cha ching . The Feds just subsidized their own loss of income … If only supply and demand at the pump was a real phenomenon and not controlled by wars and govt … You would think fuel would stay this low of more cars are electric… Hahaha. That won’t happen
Hmmm.
Jason,
I think you are taking too narrow of view of the entire tax structure. What is permitted as a “business expense” is a creature of the tax code. The government uses the tax code has a vehicle to socially engineer our society. You can expense a computer because the code permits that expense, While you cannot expense your home computer, yet we all have home computers. My bet is we would still have business computers even if the Code did not permit these as a business expense.
Modern versions of the tax code permit 401K expenses, healthcare expenses, health care accounts, all of which are deemed legitimate expenses as a result of our government socially engineering our businesses. I endorse and support this type of social engineering.
Tax credits are simply another form of social engineerIng. The government, in my opinion, rightly believes, that we must become a nation free of fossil fuel. 40 years ago, low income housing projects were developed as a result of tax credits on those projects. I cannot comment on whether these projects were a long-term success. However, they would not have been built without tax credits.
Our elected representatives believe it is worth paying interest on $7500 to encourage the acquisition of electric vehicles. Clearly, this has less significance on a $150,000 car, than on a $50,000 car. But there is no reason not to take the credit when given.
Final thoughts. History should not be considered irrelevant, as in your comment…in irrelevant times. Lessons can be learned from our history. The current deficit needs to be addressed. It may already be too late. And and we agree our current taxes are too high.
Be well.
T
No, it will follow Georgia’s lead. Georgia kept increasing the incentive until it got up to $5000.00 on top of the 7500.00 federal. People were leasing Leaf’s at about 90.00/ month. Atlanta is lousy with Leafs. The GA legislature decided to do a little Leaf blowing and reversed course. They eliminated the tax credit and initiated a $200.00 fee to make up for the revenue loss. Talk about bipolar politicians! You can now buy a one year old Leaf for less than 10K. I am thinking I may do exactly that.
Eventually, I suspect that we will all end up paying a tax based on miles driven, Electricity will become dearer and there will be wars over over the land that has rare earth metals needed for the batteries.
As far as Tesla goes, I think it’s an amazing feat of engineering and business management that they have done as well as they have. The car is cool and, with the Georgia politics being what they are, who knows, a used Tesla may end up in the bargain bin.
Why not comment? They were an unmitigated disaster! Can’t think of a better example of where money was diverted from the private sector and its ability to create jobs to a cesspool dead end for the poor who were stuffed into those projects.
Wow, we’re flirting with, if not already moving into Hot Section material in this thread-within-a-thread.
OK, since I don’t “do” the Hot Section, I’ll use the excuse, “But Mom, everyone else is doing it,” and join in with a small contribution. I think that some (a lot?) of Gordon’s frustration as a business owner may be summarized, sort of in parable form, here. I’m sure many in this group who have started and/or run businesses have had similar experiences. Wonder why job numbers aren’t “taking off?” Wonder why new business starts are way down? There are a variety of reasons, but some very important ones are described in this “parable.”
Someone pointed out that our government reflects “the people.” Well, yes and no. While that may be true of the legislative branch and at least part of the executive branch–they are accountable periodically through the electoral process–there is yet a fourth de facto branch of government beyond executive, legislative & judicial: the administrative authorities. These are all the regulatory agencies and rule-makers, and to some extent the justice department although the latter is nominally part of the executive branch. Their edicts have the force of law, are not generally subjected to legislative or judicial review, are barely if at all accountable to the public, and it is exceedingly difficult (read: time, $$$, “justice delayed is justice denied”) to challenge their overreach when it occurs (a recent example here, just one of many). I believe it is this “fourth” branch of government at both federal and state levels that is in reality the source of most of the problems and citizens’ anger/frustration.
And by the way, I hope Ryan is really enjoying that Tesla, and I especially hope he took advantage of every possible incentive offered!
Gordon,
My “I cannot comment” was made because my experience is very narrow, and I know that there are areas in which this was not successful.
However, In Naples, I know of at least two very successful projects (one of which was developed by my father) constructed as a result of these tax credits that are still going strong. These are not inner city low income projects… but they are low income in the Naples area and they remain successful.
t
We completed a number of senior and family low income housing projects under the tax credit program in the 1990’s. The low income tax credit is still available and used for housing today.
The program provided well designed, good quality housing at reasonable cost. (non -prevailing wages) The rents were indexed to income (30%). The tax credit program required a 15 year minimum compliance period. We still own a half dozen of these and they are well maintained and still fully occupied. The program provided a reasonable return to the developer, a 5% contractor fee, but very minimal ongoing returns. Rents were monitored by the tax credit agencies to provide nominal cash flows. (maybe $100/unit/year.
We received mortgages with a 50 year amortization and a 1% interest rate. This allowed the rents to remain low and the state tax credit agencies provided rental assistance for tenants. One of the best run programs I have seen, but that could vary depending on the state.
Since we love to discuss Tesla on this forum, here is a brief review I made of the Model X.
You are bold to get white interior with small kids. Good luck.
Nice review. Enjoyed it.
Beautiful review…
I think you need to fly to Duluth and do a similar review on the SF50…
Very nice Marcus. I’m thinking long and hard about picking up a Model X, but my biggest concern is rain getting in through the gullwing doors on our lovely Nebraska sideways rains we get frequently. Straight down rain, obvoiusly isn’t a problem, but I’m thinking any wind could make the interior very wet.
Beautiful review–was this a founders edition? I just finalized my order 2 weeks ago and am waiting for delivery in “early” 2016. Hope that’s not too long and they start pumping these out!