I need Cirrus owners honest opinion. Recently sold my Seneca III and seriously looking at an SR22. While I fly out of most normal airports I regularly have to fly into a private paved strip of 2100’ over 50 foot obstacle. Not much room for error, so to speak. The POH for the SR22 shows 2300’ needed for landings over 50’ obstacle (and thats by a professional). I would like to continue the search for an SR22 but don’t want to kid myself. Anybody with real shortfield experience in the SR22 your comments and thoughts would be appreciated as this is a major decision.
I take it you were not flying the Seneca III into that field.
Were it not for the 50 foot obstacle I’d say it was doable, but with the obstacle it would be marginal at best due to the possibility of unforeseen wind shifts on final, density altitude, etc. that could put you literally off the edge.
Honestly, I would say that is the wrong runway for the plane or the wrong plane for the runway. Sure it can be done, but the margins for error are pretty small.
Damn! Won’t everybody take a moment and think about this 50’ obstacle distance. Here for landing, earlier for takeoffs.
It is not the runway distance – it is the distance from the 50’ obstacle to the point that the plane comes to a complete stop. The 50’ obstacle had better not be right at the runway threshold, eh?!
See page 5-9 of the SR22 POH:
Note the reference to a 2000 foot runway. Then note the distance to land over a 50 foot obstacle – 2476 feet. Hard to do that all on pavement, eh?!
So, Hugo, the key question is to find out the surveyed distance between the runway threshold and the 50’ obstacle at your private airstrip. Then add the runway length of 2100’ and evaluate the SR22 performance.
Cheers
Rick
Sorry, forgot to post my experience. I routinely fly into an airport with a challenging runway. Ocean Ridge Airport has a 2500’ runway with displaced thresholds at both ends – 400’ at one end and 300’ at the other.
The runway data indicates some challenges:
Runway 13/31
Dimensions:
2500 x 50 ft. / 762 x 15 m
Surface:
asphalt, in fair condition
Weight bearing capacity:
Single wheel:
8.0
Runway edge lights:
low intensity
Runway edge markings:
13/31 NSTD DSPLCD THR MARKINGS - YELLOW.
RUNWAY 13
RUNWAY 31
Latitude:
38-48.265000N
38-47.930000N
Longitude:
123-31.991667W
123-31.685333W
Traffic pattern:
left
right
Displaced threshold:
400 ft.
300 ft.
Markings:
NSTD, in good condition
NSTD, in good condition
Obstructions:
100 ft. trees, 1500 ft. from runway, 75 ft. right of centerline, 14:1 slope to clear
+60-90 FT TREES 0-200 FT FROM THLD; 125 FT LEFT & RIGHT.
40 ft. trees, 1000 ft. from runway, 140 ft. left of centerline, 20:1 slope to clear
RY 31 APCH RATIO 32:1 TO DSPLCD THLD.
Note the slope to clear of 14:1 and 20:1 for the trees and 32:1 to the threshold.
What’s not documented is that there is a hump in the middle with about a 4% slope from Runway 31 threshold to the middle and about a 2% slope from Runway 13 threshold to the middle. Great if you can stop in half the distance, terrible if you are too fast! [:O]
And the trees contribute to almost constant wind shear, since the prevailing winds aloft are often from the ocean shoreline about 270 degrees and the winds shift to align with the runway due to the channeling effect of the tall trees.
How does it work out? Pretty well. I guess that maybe 1 in 10 landings result in a go around, half of which are because of my sloppiness in managing approach speed and half because the wind shear does something that screws up my final approach alignment.
My worst landings are those where the winds are calm! [;)] Crossing the trees at 75 knots airspeed and ground speed when the winds are calm is much different than a ground speed of 55 knots due to a headwind.
Most of the time, I can make the middle turn off at about 1300’. However, I have never exceeded about 1800’ of the runway. There have been several overrun accidents when the pilots have landed with a tailwind (duh!) or way too fast. So, I brief passengers about the need to manage speed and descent profile and if it isn’t working out then we’ll do a go-around and some sightseeing to come back and try again! [;)]
BTW, many of my landing are heavy because I need to tanker fuel. There is no fuel or services at this airport.
How did I get good at this? Great instructors. Matt McDaniel was my transition instructor and I have 26 crosswind landings in 1.6 hours – never had a problem deciding if I was okay to land or not after that!
Cheers
Rick
Rick,
I believe that is the pressure altitude and temperature of the airport to arrive at those numbers not the runway length. FAR part 23 certification requires that published landing distance be from 50 feet over the end of the concrete.
Rick,
I think Patrick is correct. The landing distances assume you cross the threshold at 50ft and 1/2 inch to clear the 50 foot obstacle. The 2000 feet and 20C refer to the conditions under which you want to make the landing over the obstacle.
In specific answer to Hugo’s question I think the question answered itself. If the book requires more than the available runway length I would not attempt a landing. Further, if the day is hot or the winds not favorable things are even worse and there is simply not a sufficient margin for error.
BTW I think the certification numbers are based on not using “excessive” braking so it may be possible to land in a shorter distance using maximal braking. Unfortunately that can destroy your tires and ignite the brakes as well.
So Hugo, if you have to routinely fly into such an airport I personally would not recommend a Cirrus for such an operation.
Hi Hugounruh. We have two SR22 based on a small airport (in France). Please find below is the dimensions of the runways (in meters)
In feet:
TODA 1906
ASDA 2296
LDA 1755
We both have no problem to land.
I have fun at Y47 - Oakland Southwest
RWY 8 Displaced threshold: 1266ft RWY 26 Displaced threshold 864ft
Runway 8/26
Dimensions:
3128 x 40 ft. / 953 x 12 m
Surface:
asphalt, in fair condition
Runway edge lights:
low intensity
RUNWAY 8
RUNWAY 26
Latitude:
42-30.105067N
42-30.269933N
Longitude:
083-37.752067W
083-37.092717W
Elevation:
921.0 ft.
926.0 ft.
Traffic pattern:
left
left
Runway heading:
074 magnetic, 071 true
254 magnetic, 251 true
Displaced threshold:
1266 ft.
864 ft.
Markings:
basic, in fair condition
basic, in fair condition
Visual slope indicator:
2-box VASI on right (3.00 degrees glide path)
2-box VASI on left (3.00 degrees glide path)
Runway end identifier lights:
no
no
Obstructions:
20 ft. brush, 201 ft. from runway
-4 FT DITCH 40 FT FM THR & SCTD +5-15 FT BRUSH.
30 ft. trees, 201 ft. from runway, 110 ft. right of centerline
20’ BRUSH 84’ FM THR 110’ L; +10’ STACKED DRAIN TILE 125’ FM THLD 120’L.
To answer OP, it is difficult there is a lot of variables to take into account: Density Altitude (Pressure altitude and temperature), Slope, Grade, condition, type of surface, physical location of obstacles, aircraft weight.
I always side on cautious side: I never account for headwind in calculating TOL performance (it may not be there just when you need it). For liability reasons I can’t give you a direct answer, but do your homework and be safe. If you are looking at Turbo model to get a little extra, don’t. You never know when you might have a silly little failure like an intake manifold leak at an inopportune time!
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Certification is based on “Maximum Braking”
-
Maximum Braking will cause early brake pad and tire replacement
-
Maximum Braking will NOT ignite the brakes on a Cirrus - Hot brakes on a Cirrus (Causing the brake sticker to darken) is a by-product of improper taxi, not landing. You would have to do repeated landings in very quick succession to cause the sticker to change. I fly a relatively short pattern (when dictated or necessary a very tight pattern) and I have yet to discolor a sticker either taxiing or landing. I have seen a lot of planes with discolored stickers though, all attributed to riding the brakes while taxiing.
During my CSIP training, one of the test pilots even told me how he tried over and over again to darken the sticker making flapless high-speed landings and was unable to.
Brett
I agree with others that the SR22 is not a good match for that runway. A 2100 foot runway with open approaches is very doable, but dealing with a 50 foot obstacle leaves too little margin for error. My home airport has a 2500 foot runway with power lines about 200 feet off the end. On a warm calm day, that is as challenging as I’m up to.
Hi Guys,
I don’t think there is a problem with that length of runway. As long as you have been trained properly and come in over the threshold at the correct speed.
At Denham EGLD in the UK where I am based www.egld.com we have under 2200’ of LDA available and trees at either end. We have 12 Cirrus aircraft based on the airfield and noone has any real issue with it.
We can most of the time land and stop without excessive braking with 1/2 to 3/4 of the runway. So I wouldn’t let it put you off.
John Page
Respectfully, this is 2100x30 - and if flown correctly at the correct reference speed based on the landing weight will be done without issue.
If not, and you blow it by 5 knots - well - you go off the end.
If you are one of the latter - then see this thread: Cirrus Owners & Pilots Association > Forums
Brett:
RNWY 26 @864 ft! Impressive.
Flare too high and you could miss the whole airport.
-john
I just assumed there was a 50’ obstacle at mid-field. As an engineer, with a poorly-specified problem, we always gravitate to worst-case.
“The glass is twice as large as it needs to be for the liquid contained.”
I am not sure if you read that right. The displaced threshold is 864 feet. The other end has over a 1200 feet displaced threshold. The runway as a whole is over 3000 feet.
I am NOT landing on a 864 foot runway!
Regards
Brett
Nice and soft short landing. I notice you leave the flaps down. Do you do that for drag, to facilitate go around, or just preference?