I have flown Bonanzas in the past but I have never spun one nor have I done a spin in the Cirrus. I can say that the stall characteristics of both planes are similar with the only difference being that the Cirrus is a harder to get to stall.
the Cirrus also has a rudde/ aerliron interconnect that, when combined with the “split” wing, means there is more control authority when the plane stalls. In that respect, if one wing drops in the stall before the other, it IS easier to manage recovery from the stall in a CXirrus versus a Bonanza.
In all, both planes are quite docile when it comes to stalls.
I have given flight instruction in an SR22. I treat it much like I treated my Tiger, which has a similar spin prohibition.
While I set 1,500’ as a minimum when doing stalls in Cessnas, I generally make 3,000’ the minimum in the Cirrus or Tiger, with 4,000+ plus desirable… The assumption is it might take a bit longer to get out of an unintentional spin/incipient spin, if a recovery was possible at all.
For private, I would normally demonstrate cross-control stalls and either spins or incipient spins (1st 1/2 turn). I would do neither in the Cirrus or the Tiger.
When doing departure stalls in the Cirrus, we only used 65% power (per the PTS). I’ve never seen the Cirrus do anything even a little scary, but I do find myself glancing at the CAPS handle - an option which I’d probably miss now in the Tiger.
Mike,
My feeling about the spin characteristics of the Cirrus is simply that I don’t think much about them.
I know the plane stalls fairly benignly as long as the ball is centered. Unlike Mike Radomsky I haven’t tried uncoordinated stalls.
It seems to me that if you want to buy an airplane to spin then look at an aerobatic plane. If you want a plane to fly from point A to B the spin characteristics don’t make much of a difference since you’re not going to do lots of stalls anyway. You learn to fly the plane specifically to avoid the area around the stall.
Remember airliners don’t spin well and that doesn’t keep the airlines from buying them and the pilots flying them without spinning them in.
Finally, the overwhelming majority of stall/spin accidents in GA occur during the base to final turn. No matter how benign the stall/spin characteristics of the plane you would be too low to recover.
In summary, for me, the spin characteristics of the plane are of academic interest only.
HI: for what it is worth, I used to fly an A36–great plane, but I have decided to step up to the Cirrus SR 22 as soon as I sell a boat. Like the glass cockpit, speed and total package.
In reply to:
When doing departure stalls in the Cirrus, we only used 65% power (per the PTS). I’ve never seen the Cirrus do anything even a little scary, but I do find myself glancing at the CAPS handle - an option which I’d probably miss now in the Tiger.
FastEddi,
Well, I’ve never posted about this before, but here goes.
I have experienced an incipient spin, from power-on departure stall in a Cirrus (an SR20). During my delivery training for N84MR, my instructor had me try one.
At that time, early 2001, departure stalls were still being taught “all the way” - I believe that has changed, and now pilots are being told to recover at the first indication of a stall (probably the stall warning horn). I held the yoke back through the horn and well into the buffeting. I don’t know whether there has been any change to the power used in an SR20 – certainly then I was using full power. My bad, I did not have the ball in the middle… so at the stall, a wing dropped, and the airplane clearly indicated that it would like to spin now! I would describe the entry as ‘vigorous’ - not quite as energetic as the Piper Tomahawks I used to teach in, but more so than a C152.
I learned and taught to fly where spin training is mandatory; so I reacted quickly and decisively - Power Off/Ailerons Neutral/FULL Opposite Rudder/Yoke FULL forward 'till it flies/Ease off rudder… recover from the dive. The airplane reacted immediately, and absolutely as expected. I learned never to do that again. I think my instructor did, too [:)]. I should emphasize that we did NOT enter a spin, although I have no doubt that we were about to.
As an aside, using the CAPS didn’t even enter my mind in that moment (my first hour or two with the airplane). I’ve thought about that a lot, since then. I don’t believe it applies any longer.
FWIW…
- Mike.
Edited “Cessna Tomahawks” to Piper Tomahawks – with amazement that nobody else called me on it! [:)]
In reply to:
At that time, early 2001, departure stalls were still being taught “all the way” - I believe that has changed, and now pilots are being told to recover at the first indication of a stall (probably the stall warning horn). I held the yoke back through the horn and well into the buffeting.
Mike,
I picked up my 22 in on May 2nd, 2001. I was also asked to hold well into the buffeting of the stall. Fortunately, my outcome was not nearly as exciting [;)]. At the time I was impressed at how benign it was, thanks for sharing.
Mike, your ability and training to react right now and correctly is exactly why I believe that spin training is necessary. Get the sequence wrong or delay responding and you’ve really got troubles. This was equally true in the Grumman family. (BTW, I wonder how the plane would recover simply using a Beggs-Muller approach?)
I’m scheduled for the CPPP at Madison and wondered if any thought’s been given to having someone like Rich Stowell participate? Obviously not in one of our Cirri. I’m headed down to AZ next month to go through recurrency EMT training. Your note’s a great reminder why.
Cheers.
In reply to:
At that time, early 2001, departure stalls were still being taught “all the way” - I believe that has changed, and now pilots are being told to recover at the first indication of a stall (probably the stall warning horn).
I don’t mean to sound stupid, but is there some reason (other than potential discomfort from the high pitch angle) that we should NOT be doing departure stalls “all the way”?
I try to go up and practice basic airmanship like steep turns, slow flight, stalls, etc. every 3-6 months or so, and I have always been doing the departure stalls “all the way”, and with full power (though full power on my -20 is certainly different than full power on a -22).
Did I miss a memo somewhere that said we shouldn’t be doing this?
In reply to:
Unlike Mike Radomsky I haven’t tried uncoordinated stalls.
Jerry,
You’re very kind – you could have said, “Unlike Mike Radomsky, I don’t fly sloppily”. I wish I could say that I was trying an uncoordinated stall (on purpose) – rather, I experienced one, and haven’t stopped kicking myself yet.
I have no excuse. It’s true that I was new to the airplane and not yet used to the amount of right rudder I’d need in the departure configuration, but I had a perfectly good inclinometer right in front of me, and I was sitting on a butt that should have been very well calibrated by that point in my career. I put it down to the excitement of my first flight in my first new airplane, but that’s hardly professional. If I’d been an examiner, I’d have failed me.
- Mike.
In reply to:
I’m scheduled for the CPPP at Madison and wondered if any thought’s been given to having someone like Rich Stowell participate?
Patrick,
Yes, we’ve discussed it. So far, we’ve decided against - various reasons include the “tightness” of the existing schedule, and the arguably dubious value of such trainning (see Jerry Seckler’s comments elsewhere in this thread). That said, we are in the process of considering a classroom presentation right now.
- Mike.
In reply to:
I don’t mean to sound stupid, but is there some reason (other than potential discomfort from the high pitch angle) that we should NOT be doing departure stalls “all the way”?
I try to go up and practice basic airmanship like steep turns, slow flight, stalls, etc. every 3-6 months or so, and I have always been doing the departure stalls “all the way”, and with full power (though full power on my -20 is certainly different than full power on a -22).
Did I miss a memo somewhere that said we shouldn’t be doing this?
Steve,
I don’t know that there’s been any memo to the public. I’m guessing (and it’s only a guess) that either Cirrus or UND decided to teach/demonstrate departure stalls in a slightly more conservative way; what I know for sure is that it was different when I picked up my '22 - I was asked to initiate recovery at the first indication of a stall.
The experience I described during delivery of N84MR was the result of sloppy flying - I was not in coordinated flight, and that’s a bad thing when combined with a departure stall in almost any airplane. My post was a heads-up that this is important, that the result can be rapid and a real surprise, and if it happens, it’s essential to know how to recover.
Personally, I just don’t see a reason for me to go there again on purpose, so I won’t.
- Mike.
In reply to:
is there some reason (other than potential discomfort from the high pitch angle) that we should NOT be doing departure stalls “all the way”?
I’d guess a full-power departure stall in the SR22 would be close to an aerobatic maneuver; the deck angle would be quite high, and over 30degrees is aerobatics for which we are not approved.
Mike,
I really wasn’t trying to be kind. I was trying to start a discussion of the importance or lack thereof of spin characteristics in GA aircraft that are clearly designed for transportation, as well as the pros and cons of routinely exploring the “edges of the envelope”. So far nobody has taken the bait.
A very small and perhaps moot point (but one that is often confusing): The 30 degree/60 degree rule is not the definition of aerobatic flight, but is rather the parachute requirement.
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FAR § 91.303 Aerobatic flight.
For the purposes of this section, aerobatic flight means an intentional maneuver involving an abrupt change in an aircraft’s attitude, an abnormal attitude, or abnormal acceleration, not necessary for normal flight.FAR § 91.307 Parachutes and parachuting.
(c) Unless each occupant of the aircraft is wearing an approved parachute, no pilot of a civil aircraft carrying any person (other than a crewmember) may execute any intentional maneuver that exceeds—
(1) A bank of 60 degrees relative to the horizon; or
(2) A nose-up or nose-down attitude of 30 degrees relative to the horizon.
(d) Paragraph (c) of this section does not apply to—
(1) Flight tests for pilot certification or rating; or
(2) Spins and other flight maneuvers required by the regulations for any certificate or rating when given by—
(i) A certificated flight instructor; or
(ii) An airline transport pilot instructing in accordance with §61.67 of this chapter.
Which I guess brings up an interesting question regarding the CAPS…
In reply to:
I’d guess a full-power departure stall in the SR22 would be close to an aerobatic maneuver; the deck angle would be quite high, and over 30degrees is aerobatics for which we are not approved.
The deck angle of a full power departure stall is quite impressive (almost scary). In my training with Wings Aloft, we did it that way. The instructor demonstrated what he wanted because he said he found most pilots would not do it aggressively enough. He was right, I would not have. Process was slow to 80 knots, no flaps, at the same time pull back on the yoke and smoothly slide in full power. hold it back until it stalls…takes a lot of vertical altitude [:O] And you might be right, parachute might be required. But hey, we have one - on the plane right [;)]
I think doing at reduced power settings makes a lot more sense and is what I do now for practice.
Good point…and note, the parachute requirement (which applies to all occupants…not to the plane itself) applies only if there is a non-crew member passenger. It would certainly be legal to practice stalls exceeding 30 degree pitch alone in the plane with no parachute.