In reply to:
And I DID MEAN groundspeed because, when you are on the ground with the whells contacting the pavement, there is NO DIFFERENCE between airspeed and groundspeed effectively.
When I am standing still with a 20 head wind, I have a 20 knot airspeed which is certainly different from my ground speed which is 0. Perhaps you have a immunity to wind which the rest of us don’t.
In reply to:
I really do disagree again. And I DID MEAN groundspeed because, when you are on the ground with the whells contacting the pavement, there is NO DIFFERENCE between airspeed and groundspeed effectively.
Think about it. Taxiing at 60 kts groundspeed with a 60 kt tailwind would give you an airspeed of, well, zero. Zero does not equal 60. And, BTW, your rudder would have precisely zero effectiveness because there would be no air moving over it.
In reply to:
BUT, I have had a brake failure in a Cessna 172 and I can assure that it was impossible to control the airplane with nosewheel steering. The combination of using opposite rudder and the good brake is the ONLY technique that will keep you on the runway; nosewheel type aside
Opposite rudder is of course the proper technique initially, but as the rudder’s effectiveness deminishes as you slow, and you get more weight on the nose wheel, then nose wheel steering becomes quite effective during the remainder of the landing roll out – not to mention while taxiing afterwards! I’ve had a brake failure in my TB20 and it resulted in nothing more than an uneventful taxi back to the line. I’ve also lost a brake in a T-28 (no nose wheel steering) and it resulted in a hasty shutdown followed by an uneventful tow back to the line. Take your pick.
But, hey, that’s just me. I guess the Cirrus is so revolutionary that the laws of physics (or airspeed) don’t apply to it.
But in that case the plane is not moving so brakes do not matter. The plane is already stopped.
Look, the point is, and to answer the question, the free castering nosewheel is not a significant factor in runway control; PERIOD. Maybe you ought to try flying a Cirrus and see for yourself.
By Art:
In reply to:
When I am standing still with a 20 head wind, I have a 20 knot airspeed which is certainly different from my ground speed which is 0. Perhaps you have a immunity to wind which the rest of us don’t.
By JM0045 - who doesn’t use his real name and is no longer a member
In reply to:
But, hey, that’s just me. I guess the Cirrus is so revolutionary that the laws of physics (or airspeed) don’t apply to it.
Just curious, why does Art and this other guy seem to consistently need to have such a sarcastic and not-nice tone to their comments. If they don’t like the Cirrus, and if this JM guy, in his words, was once a member but is no longer, why do they bother taking part in and degrading an otherwise friendly debate with vitriol and personal attack.
It would be easier for me to not comment, but I don’t read these boards to see two smart asses belittle someone who makes an inaccurate comment.[:)]
It’s boring and unnecessary.
Jeff
In reply to:
But in that case the plane is not moving so brakes do not matter. The plane is already stopped.
You’re digging yourself a deeper and deeper hole. In my example (taxiing at 60 kts groundspeed with a 60 kt tail wind) you would NOT be stopped! You’d be travelling at 60 knots down the taxiway but be motionless in the 60 kt moving air mass. (That’s why it’s colder walking into the wind than with it.)
In reply to:
Look, the point is, and to answer the question, the free castering nosewheel is not a significant factor in runway control; PERIOD. Maybe you ought to try flying a Cirrus and see for yourself.
Well, I guess my 1100 hours as an instructor pilot in the no-nose-wheel-steering T-28 don’t count because obviously a completely different set of aerodynamics applies when flying the Cirrus.
In reply to:
Maybe you ought to try flying a Cirrus and see for yourself.
I tried it, and I didn’t like it.
Thanks Jeff!
Because…
Someone asked a simple question about the Cirrus’ free castering nose wheel. I simply pointed out that it has some drawbacks, which it has (and some advantages, as others pointed out).
The Cirrus faithful immediately flocked to the defense of their bird (crtitcism of it, no matter how minor, can not be left unchallenged!). The vitriol, complete with CAPITAL LETTERS, started not with me, but with others.
Joe Mazza, BTW
In reply to:
why does Art and this other guy seem to consistently need to have such a sarcastic and not-nice tone to their comments.
It is just that Cirrus supporters have a habit of ignoring facts in their zeal to defend the plane that, without thinking, they post absolute nonsense.
[quote]
(That’s why it’s colder walking into the wind than with it.)
[quote]
Since you are into nit-picking, I don’t believe there is any temperature difference whether walking into or with the wind.
There’s a “trick” that us old Tiger drivers learned… When taking the runway, point to the right of centerline. Then when you apply power and the plane swings left you will be on centerline at about the same time that the rudder becomes effective.[:)]
In reply to:
I have specifically tried take off in my SR22 without using the right brake. It does not work.
Mine usually needs a touch of right brake, too.
This topic did start out about SR20’s - they probably don’t need as much, if any, right brake.
In reply to:
It does not need a lot of right brake, but there is some needed for me until there is enough speed so the rudder is effective.
Stephen,
You’re right, some brake is necessary. Maybe I wasn’t as clear as I should have been. My friend really kind of stabbed at the right brake a few times and jerked the plane a couple of times. It wasn’t a smooth application and transition to no brakes, like, of course, I do.[;)]
Besides, with all the propwash from full power and the Cirrus’ get up and go, it’s only a matter of seconds before the rudder is fully effective.
Jeff
I have specifically tried take off in my SR22 without using the right brake. It does not work. I tried full rudder at the beginning of the takeoff roll but some brake was necessary to keep the plane on the centerline.<<
I find that surprising…though I’m not a Cirrus pilot. Shouldn’t you get enough rudder authority from the propwash to keep it centered, without applying brakes? I’ve flown a lot of free castering planes, Diamonds, taildraggers, and as I recall never used brakes on takeoff…but I may have a bad recollection
In reply to:
There’s a “trick” that us old Tiger drivers learned… When taking the runway, point to the right of centerline. Then when you apply power and the plane swings left you will be on centerline at about the same time that the rudder becomes effective. [:)]
Marty,
Yup, same for me. I don’t use the right brake at all… I use the technique you describe. In the event that I point too far to the right before starting the takeoff roll, I use a little left rudder. Once mastered, though, the technique becomes second nature, and one gets really good at judging when to apply power while in the turn to get the nose “just so” degrees off centerline!
“old”???
Mike, how much difference in the proper “cant” between the '20 and '22?
Just had my first checkout flight in a PFD-equipped '20 on Sunday–impressive. I found it very nearly easier to control the plane’s attitude by reference to the PFD than by looking outside! IMC should be quite a bit easier with this–as all of you know better than I, I’m sure!
In reply to:
Mike, how much difference in the proper “cant” between the '20 and '22?
Kevin,
This is something I do more by feel than observation, but I think I needed a little more offset on the '20. It takes (much) longer for it to get to speeds where the rudder becomes effective. That’s somewhat countered by the lighter weight of the '20 (so you need less rudder effectivness for the same result).
Another mutually opposite effect: The more powerful engine of the '22 provides more propwash, so on the one hand, you have more airflow over the rudder to work with, and on the other, that’s the very airflow that you need rudder to counter.
Still, I think I need less centerline offset with the '22.
mike,
as long as we’re talking opinion here…
when i decided on cirrus, i got checked out in a 20 and was surprised by the right rudder on takeoff compared to bonanza. but i was very surprised by the amount required in my 22 compared to the 20. not that it’s a big problem now that im aware of it, but i most definitely start with about a 30 degree offset in the 22 which seems to be the smoothest for me – wonder what my passengers think though.
now with some experience with this, i believe the majority of the speed difference of a36 v. sr22 is in the canted engine mount of the bonanza to reduce pfactor.
In reply to:
…but i most definitely start with about a 30 degree offset in the 22 which seems to be the smoothest for me – wonder what my passengers think though.
John,
I doubt my passengers even notice. I’m sure it appears to them that power is being applied while the airplane is being steered onto the centerline, which is indeed what’s happening. It might be more noticeable when turning RIGHT onto the runway, because that requires overshooting the runway heading before applying power. Turning left onto the runway… much less obvious, because you’re simply applying power during the turn.