Parachute vs stall

Guest Discussion
21

Interesting subject. Good points made by all. Tell me all the circumstances of a particular emergency and I’ll tell you which plane I want to be in…

Bob,

All your points are good, too. And, when a CAPS is deployed in actual need, I think it will be judged by the outcome (as opposed to the appropriateness of the decision to use it in whatever circumstances happen to prevail).

There is one group of people who would take CAPS over stall/mush any day: Non-pilot passengers who contemplate the possibility of having to “bring her down” with an incapacitated pilot. It would be redundant to go over all the reasons that is so; many of them are obvious, and anyway, we’ve done so many times in the past. But I do know that it IS so, and we shouldn’t forget that in discussions on the value of that parachute.

I have always felt that it would be a nice feature to be able to have a way to jettison the deployed parachute, though, in circumstances such as you describe, or even in the event of an inadvertant deployment. I’m sure that there are good technical reasons that we don’t have that option, but I don’t know what they are.

  • Mike.
22

One point, but a very significant one.

It isn’t an either/or choice. If, as you propose, you have an acceptable ceiling for final maneuvers beneath the clouds (e.g., 1000 feet) then, fine, don’t deploy the chute until you emerge beneath the ceiling and find that it is the better choice. With the Cirrus, you then have a choice - deploy or not. (POH - from level flight demonstrated altitude loss is 400 feet.) With the Lancair, no choice.

Now tell me which plane you’d rather be in. ; >

Gordon

Interesting subject. Good points made by all. Tell me all the circumstances of a particular emergency and I’ll tell you which plane I want to be in. Lacking that information I’ll take my chances with 900 fpm and 40-60 knots forward speed.

If it’s IMC to the ground I made the wrong choice. (If I’ve lost a lot of plastic in a mid-air I’ve also made the wrong choice.) Fog goes to the ground. Most of the IMC we fly in does not go to the ground.

Pull the Cirrus rip cord and you may as well take a coffee break. Your chores and choices are done until after landing. Exactly where you touch down is up to serendipity, as in entirely out of your control.

As long as we are dealing with hypotheticals let me ask, what if you break out of the clouds before plunk down? Would you rather be descending at 900 fpm travelling at 40-60 knots with the ability to resume a controlled descent or be out of options, descending straight down to, whatever, at 1600-1800 fpm?

I know, it depends. But you don’t have the answer to “it depends” beforehand.

As much as I hate to use an anecdote to reinforce a point this one is too good to pass up, "there was a loud pop then silence. I stabilized the

airplane and ran the checklist. I informed Center that we were declaring an

emergency and that I would need vectors to the nearest airport. We were

right between Eagle and Aspen so we flipped a coin and took Eagle. Center

also informed us that we would loose radar below 12,000 due to terrain.

granite of the Front Range.

Odds were that we were about to do the same.

At about 12,000 feet the up till that day trusty Lycoming started to cough

and I was able to get a restart, albeit at reduced power and rough. I’ll

take it! moments later Hamid spotted Eagle through a break in the clouds. A

three G turn while deploying the speed brakes put us through the hole. We

contacted Eagle tower and were informed that there was a helicopter in the

pattern. "Tell hBy this time our situation was reasonably serious. We were hard IFR with

turbulence and icing, no engine, about to attempt an IFR approach into an

unfamiliar airport that was 8,000 feet BELOW MEA. All we needed would be for

night to fall and have an electrical failure for this to be a "perfect

storm". I focused on keeping the airplane level and flying in the right

direction and [pilot passenger] monitored the moving map I had built for the plane.

Below us the clouds terminated in the cumulousgranite of the Front Range.

Odds were that we were about to do the same.

At about 12,000 feet the up till that day trusty Lycoming started to cough

and I was able to get a restart, albeit at reduced power and rough. I’ll

take it! moments later [pilot passenger] spotted Eagle through a break in the clouds. A

three G turn while deploying the speed brakes put us through the hole. We

contacted Eagle tower and were informed that there was a helicopter in the

pattern. “Tell him to get out of the way!” I was in no mood to be nice.

After what we had been through it was a relief to do a partial dead stick

landing in light rain to an unfamiliar high altitude field. We made it!"

True story, coincidentally in a Lancair.

Stephen, the stall characteristics you describe would fit most planes. However the Columbia goes into a wings level mush with almost no porpoising. I’ve flown two of them and no matter what I did could not get them to act otherwise in a stall.

23

I’m somewhat surprised by reading this thread that anyone thinks that there is that much difference between a Columbia 300 and an SR22 (apples-to-apples comparison) regarding this ‘mush stall concept’. You could, in fact, do the 900 fpm decent with slow forward speed in an SRXX. (Frankly, we’re not all test pilots and probably cannot get book numbers in attempting this.) Having flown both a Columbia 300 and SR22 (and SR20), I was unable to tell the difference in slow flight. All performed quite well.

One counter argument to the point below. As with many of my other California pilot friends, I often do not take flights in the spring and fall because of ground fog covering the valley for hundreds of miles. Near zero-zero from the ground to 800-1200 AGL and perfect weather above it on many dozens of days a year. It’s simply not worth it to me to go. But my SR22, with it’s chute, will change that.

Interesting subject. Good points made by all. Tell me all the circumstances of a particular emergency and I’ll tell you which plane I want to be in. Lacking that information I’ll take my chances with 900 fpm and 40-60 knots forward speed.

If it’s IMC to the ground I made the wrong choice. (If I’ve lost a lot of plastic in a mid-air I’ve also made the wrong choice.) Fog goes to the ground. Most of the IMC we fly in does not go to the ground.

Pull the Cirrus rip cord and you may as well take a coffee break. Your chores and choices are done until after landing. Exactly where you touch down is up to serendipity, as in entirely out of your control.

As long as we are dealing with hypotheticals let me ask, what if you break out of the clouds before plunk down? Would you rather be descending at 900 fpm travelling at 40-60 knots with the ability to resume a controlled descent or be out of options, descending straight down to, whatever, at 1600-1800 fpm?

I know, it depends. But you don’t have the answer to “it depends” beforehand.

As much as I hate to use an anecdote to reinforce a point this one is too good to pass up, "there was a loud pop then silence. I stabilized the

airplane and ran the checklist. I informed Center that we were declaring an

emergency and that I would need vectors to the nearest airport. We were

right between Eagle and Aspen so we flipped a coin and took Eagle. Center

also informed us that we would loose radar below 12,000 due to terrain.

granite of the Front Range.

Odds were that we were about to do the same.

At about 12,000 feet the up till that day trusty Lycoming started to cough

and I was able to get a restart, albeit at reduced power and rough. I’ll

take it! moments later Hamid spotted Eagle through a break in the clouds. A

three G turn while deploying the speed brakes put us through the hole. We

contacted Eagle tower and were informed that there was a helicopter in the

pattern. "Tell hBy this time our situation was reasonably serious. We were hard IFR with

turbulence and icing, no engine, about to attempt an IFR approach into an

unfamiliar airport that was 8,000 feet BELOW MEA. All we needed would be for

night to fall and have an electrical failure for this to be a "perfect

storm". I focused on keeping the airplane level and flying in the right

direction and [pilot passenger] monitored the moving map I had built for the plane.

Below us the clouds terminated in the cumulousgranite of the Front Range.

Odds were that we were about to do the same.

At about 12,000 feet the up till that day trusty Lycoming started to cough

and I was able to get a restart, albeit at reduced power and rough. I’ll

take it! moments later [pilot passenger] spotted Eagle through a break in the clouds. A

three G turn while deploying the speed brakes put us through the hole. We

contacted Eagle tower and were informed that there was a helicopter in the

pattern. “Tell him to get out of the way!” I was in no mood to be nice.

After what we had been through it was a relief to do a partial dead stick

landing in light rain to an unfamiliar high altitude field. We made it!"

True story, coincidentally in a Lancair.

Stephen, the stall characteristics you describe would fit most planes. However the Columbia goes into a wings level mush with almost no porpoising. I’ve flown two of them and no matter what I did could not get them to act otherwise in a stall.

24

Lacking that information I’ll take my chances with 900 fpm and 40-60 knots forward speed.

You would?!?!?! I suggest you go out in a Toyota, take out the airbags and the crumple zones and drive straight into a wall at 65 mph and then reconisder. (not meant to be mean, just dramaztize my point)

This thread is fun, but actually ludicrous. The physics of an impact in an airplane with a forward speed of 60kts tells us that having a chute is a LIVESAVING OPTION.

Note: Option. I don’t think anyone is saying yank the sucker as soon as you lose an engine. You could glide, or ride the equally tame stall…etc. However, “riding the stall” down isn’t exactly a preferred method because using that technique you have little no pitch authority and directional control right before impact. You might just ride that nice stall right into a rock…

Moreover, the SRxx under the chute is coming straight down on the strongest part of the airframe, with the seats also providing impact protections. As opposed to a 60kt forward component in which you go right into the dashboard and the engine goes right into you!

My point being, don’t use the chute unless you have to, of course, but please anyone who thinks riding a stall is the better way to go - GO BY A PHYSICS BOOK. Watch some crash test dummy footage! Ask yourself this, would you land your plane directly on it’s nose at even 200 fpm! No. So why would you do it at roughly 6000fpm.

It’s not PARACHUTE vs STALL. It’s do you want BOTH or do you want only one?

If the answer is only one, then go by the plane I fly, a 260SE, because that’s the only one of these planes that actually will come in at around 40-50kts. Lancairs and Cirrus birds are going to be going closer to 70.

My vote: Parachute AND stall.

25

The answer is simple.

You always carry an extra flashlight when flying at night don’t you?

Well, just carry a shot gun with 6 rounds. If you had to pull the chute, and later change your mind, not a problem just point it up and fire away, full power nose down slightly and the chute should be trailing the airplane as a drag chute, not very good because it is now a holey chute but you should be able to put it down where you want the way you want. Next step is get in line again and hope you wont have to wait another 3 years…

Have a great Mom’s day and don’t forget to take her for a ride in a Cirrus so she too can have a great Cirrus day.

Cheers,

Woor

Interesting subject. Good points made by all. Tell me all the circumstances of a particular emergency and I’ll tell you which plane I want to be in…

Bob,

All your points are good, too. And, when a CAPS is deployed in actual need, I think it will be judged by the outcome (as opposed to the appropriateness of the decision to use it in whatever circumstances happen to prevail).

There is one group of people who would take CAPS over stall/mush any day: Non-pilot passengers who contemplate the possibility of having to “bring her down” with an incapacitated pilot. It would be redundant to go over all the reasons that is so; many of them are obvious, and anyway, we’ve done so many times in the past. But I do know that it IS so, and we shouldn’t forget that in discussions on the value of that parachute.

I have always felt that it would be a nice feature to be able to have a way to jettison the deployed parachute, though, in circumstances such as you describe, or even in the event of an inadvertant deployment. I’m sure that there are good technical reasons that we don’t have that option, but I don’t know what they are.

  • Mike.