More on &quothobbyists&quot vs. &quotcivilians&quot (longish)

I think that small aircraft GA has reached a very much “grow-or-die” or at least “grow-or-be-forever marginalized” point. While it may be–although I’m skeptical–that hobbyists at the 0.25% level can generate enough demand to sustain acceptable profitability levels for a company like Cirrus, trends of modern life conspire to make this more difficult than in the past.

Production for a hobbyist market will always be expensive (how much would a Honda Accord cost if they only made 700/year?). Third-wave-of-migration cerebrations aside, major urban areas are where the money is and where the majority of current and potential GA hobbyists reside.

But small airplane GA and the facilities it requires are under ever increasing pressure in and near urban centers as population densities and living costs increase. Nearly all small airports in such areas are endangered, or at least find it impossible to expand, and difficult or impossible to modernize their facilities. Despite AOPA’s tireless good works on our behalf, there is still no compelling (to “civilians”) counterargument to the assertion that, “a GA airport is NOT an appropriate use of land where more jobs are needed, housing is so scarce, etc.” Around here, only a year or two ago it was of course impossible to get a hangar but tiedown space was readily available. Now tiedown spaces have wait lists too–just ask Paul Traina! There’s a sizable empty chunk of land at the southeast edge of PAO: will it ever host hangars, tiedowns, or an aviation-related business? Probably not, but if so only after years of wrangling and politicking in a Palo Alto City Council which listened with rapt attention to the arguments of citizens against a new airport security fence because it would inhibit the ability of small animals to escape predators! I’m not making this up.

As living costs increase and other, better paying professions beckon, A&Ps for small airplane GA are becoming harder to recruit and retain. At least in the SF Bay Area this has resulted in a noticeable change in the “maintenance quality of life” in just the last year: longer waits to have something fixed, more expensive work, even a decline in the quality of work.

Many but not all pilots with sufficient levels of enthusiasm (hobbyists) and/or wealth (plutocrats) will find ways to adapt to these trends: move to a more GA-friendly, smaller community, fly their planes an hour or two away for maintenance, or just endure the increased cost and hassle of owning. But some will not–I have a pretty good idea what my own thresholds are!–and even the hobbyist population will dwindle.

So I think there’s little choice but to strive to increase the number of civilians who fly and therefore value & support small airplane GA. Only when demand for this resource is voiced by a larger part of the community will accomodations be made to maintain or improve access to GA in urban areas. There’s no time like the present for this to happen–greater wealth spread amongst a larger proportion of the population than ever before. But GA needs to be more attractive to civilians. It needs to be (or perceived to be) simpler, safer, more enjoyable, and more convenient.

Solutions? They are attainable: simpler, snazzier, faster, more comfortable, more economical and more reliable small planes (Cirrus et al.). More sophisticated and capable, yet simpler to operate navigational aids (Garmin, UPSAT, NASA et al.). Managed fractional ownership for small airplane GA to take the hassle and time-wasting aspects out of ownership (OurPlane et al.). Point-to-point air taxi service at a cost competitive with an airline ticket (Eclipse, maybe Safire et al.). And yes, the FAA likely needs to rethink its certification process. GA really needs these things or it will become ever more an activity on the margins of society.

Kevin,

You carefully articulate the problems with GA and then conclude with:

So I think there’s little choice but to strive to increase the number of civilians who fly and therefore value & support small airplane GA.

How is that to be achieved when you so rightly talk of the capacity, maintenance and land use problems of your local airport? If those conditions currently exist, what is going to change in the near term that expands participation?

Solution: The answer to the GA problems you identify is not in the expansion of the GA market from a hobbyist market to civilian market. The answer is in the recognition that the CORPORATE GA market is where the solution resides. Tell the fractional jet users that access to smaller airports is going to be restricted and you will get well thought out and well financed arguments about the impact on the local economy. The zillionares (as they were referred to) are the only group having the organizational skills and money to influence regional airport issues. The non- corporate GA world has long been subsidized by the corporate world (take a look at some of the FBO facilities we use) and the sooner we acknowledge that relationship the better we will be at taking advantage of it. Local communities don’t much care if you or I have the facilities needed to practice touch and goes on Sunday, but you can be sure that they will take notice if businesses describe what it means to cut off that link to the outside world. It seems to me that if we frame the GA arguments in that context, we stand a much better chance of changing peoples’ minds.

This has been a very interesting discussion, and I just want to make one small point; the distinction between “hobbyists” and “civilians” is valid, but not clear-cut - there is really a continuum from one extreme to the other - several SR20 owners (e.g. Chris Blake) illustrate that it needed the right offering to “turn” them. As the ease of entry into the “hobbyist” world changes, more civilians will sign up. Just how many sign up depends on how low the barriers to entry go.

The barriers that I see (leaving aside the availability of airports for now) are:

  1. cost - Cirrus has at least arrested the trend towards ever-increasing costs - but it needs to be reversed (if you think an SR20 is cheap, look at the rental rates for the few that are on-line)

  2. The availability of new aircraft - again this is already changing

  3. Safety, or at least the perception of safety - the BRS chute is a big step here, but more needs to be done

  4. The training process; I wonder if this needs a major shakeup, it certainly needs more new, modern aircraft. Training in a 25 year old C150 must put a lot of people off.

I think that small aircraft GA has reached a very much “grow-or-die” or at least “grow-or-be-forever marginalized” point. While it may be–although I’m skeptical–that hobbyists at the 0.25% level can generate enough demand to sustain acceptable profitability levels for a company like Cirrus, trends of modern life conspire to make this more difficult than in the past.

Production for a hobbyist market will always be expensive (how much would a Honda Accord cost if they only made 700/year?). Third-wave-of-migration cerebrations aside, major urban areas are where the money is and where the majority of current and potential GA hobbyists reside.

But small airplane GA and the facilities it requires are under ever increasing pressure in and near urban centers as population densities and living costs increase. Nearly all small airports in such areas are endangered, or at least find it impossible to expand, and difficult or impossible to modernize their facilities. Despite AOPA’s tireless good works on our behalf, there is still no compelling (to “civilians”) counterargument to the assertion that, “a GA airport is NOT an appropriate use of land where more jobs are needed, housing is so scarce, etc.” Around here, only a year or two ago it was of course impossible to get a hangar but tiedown space was readily available. Now tiedown spaces have wait lists too–just ask Paul Traina! There’s a sizable empty chunk of land at the southeast edge of PAO: will it ever host hangars, tiedowns, or an aviation-related business? Probably not, but if so only after years of wrangling and politicking in a Palo Alto City Council which listened with rapt attention to the arguments of citizens against a new airport security fence because it would inhibit the ability of small animals to escape predators! I’m not making this up.

As living costs increase and other, better paying professions beckon, A&Ps for small airplane GA are becoming harder to recruit and retain. At least in the SF Bay Area this has resulted in a noticeable change in the “maintenance quality of life” in just the last year: longer waits to have something fixed, more expensive work, even a decline in the quality of work.

Many but not all pilots with sufficient levels of enthusiasm (hobbyists) and/or wealth (plutocrats) will find ways to adapt to these trends: move to a more GA-friendly, smaller community, fly their planes an hour or two away for maintenance, or just endure the increased cost and hassle of owning. But some will not–I have a pretty good idea what my own thresholds are!–and even the hobbyist population will dwindle.

So I think there’s little choice but to strive to increase the number of civilians who fly and therefore value & support small airplane GA. Only when demand for this resource is voiced by a larger part of the community will accomodations be made to maintain or improve access to GA in urban areas. There’s no time like the present for this to happen–greater wealth spread amongst a larger proportion of the population than ever before. But GA needs to be more attractive to civilians. It needs to be (or perceived to be) simpler, safer, more enjoyable, and more convenient.

Solutions? They are attainable: simpler, snazzier, faster, more comfortable, more economical and more reliable small planes (Cirrus et al.). More sophisticated and capable, yet simpler to operate navigational aids (Garmin, UPSAT, NASA et al.). Managed fractional ownership for small airplane GA to take the hassle and time-wasting aspects out of ownership (OurPlane et al.). Point-to-point air taxi service at a cost competitive with an airline ticket (Eclipse, maybe Safire et al.). And yes, the FAA likely needs to rethink its certification process. GA really needs these things or it will become ever more an activity on the margins of society.

Well said Kevin!! Before I got into Aviation in 1999, I’ve always thought GA Airports, like my Camarillo Airport (my home airport) was nothing but wasted, useless, and ill conceived real estate. BLIGHT was always on my mind whenever I passed by the airport. But when I learned how to fly, I finally appreciated the benefits of having a GA airport. Since then, I was “turned” and have become a avid airport defender.

Mario SR 20 #411

Kevin,

You carefully articulate the problems with GA and then conclude with:

So I think there’s little choice but to strive to increase the number of civilians who fly and therefore value & support small airplane GA.

How is that to be achieved when you so rightly talk of the capacity, maintenance and land use problems of your local airport? If those conditions currently exist, what is going to change in the near term that expands participation?

Solution: The answer to the GA problems you identify is not in the expansion of the GA market from a hobbyist market to civilian market. The answer is in the recognition that the CORPORATE GA market is where the solution resides. Tell the fractional jet users that access to smaller airports is going to be restricted and you will get well thought out and well financed arguments about the impact on the local economy. The zillionares (as they were referred to) are the only group having the organizational skills and money to influence regional airport issues. The non- corporate GA world has long been subsidized by the corporate world (take a look at some of the FBO facilities we use) and the sooner we acknowledge that relationship the better we will be at taking advantage of it. Local communities don’t much care if you or I have the facilities needed to practice touch and goes on Sunday, but you can be sure that they will take notice if businesses describe what it means to cut off that link to the outside world. It seems to me that if we frame the GA arguments in that context, we stand a much better chance of changing peoples’ minds.

This is a good point and no doubt part of a solution, at least for airports with 4-5000 foot or longer runways which can accomodate bizjets. Around here such airports are in less peril than smaller ones, although CCR and WVI are becoming exceptions.

An interesting case in point is Larry Ellison’s (Oracle CEO) legal attack on SJC’s idiot weight-based operations curfew. This is designed to protect residents from late night noise perpetrated by those awful self-indulgent plutocrats who arrive in their jets after a day of business in far-off states or countries. Of course the heavier more modern bizjets are a lot quieter than the smaller, older Lears etc. which can still operate under the curfew. No matter–but I wonder whether San Jose might not have a quick attitude adjustment were Ellison to just say thank you, but he’ll be moving Oracle elsewhere (somewhere where electric power is reliable I bet!) unless this matter is resolved promptly.

As for smaller airports, I still believe that if demand for their use spreads to a larger segment of the population (via availability of economical minijet air taxi for example), then attitudes will change. This may take longer, but I don’t see why it couldn’t happen. Let’s all pray that Eclipse really can deliver on its promise.

I think a study of American innovation in general shows that it is NEED driven. Auto, commercial aviationl, personal computer, cell phone… All technologies the required a tremendous inital outlay of capital, and generated billions by making sure they filled a need, and at times created, for the AVERAGE PERSON.

Certainly in the short to medium term, the best proponent for smaller aviation is the corportate world. Simply because it is cheaper in the overall sense for companies to have a citation, and certainly will be cheaper to have an Eclipse. THis is why, as much as I love Cirrus, if I were an investing man, I’d put money into Eclipse. I know there will be a huge market for them. It is going to be cheaper for any mid-sized company to have an Eclipse at their disposal then to have a discount with American Airlines. Cheaper, and most importantly, FASTER. The Goldman Sachs of the world will have a fleet of these jets at the ready. I’ll bet anyone a dollar on it.

When this boom happens in the next ten years, private airports will be overrun with corporate FBO’s – and airports close to major business centers will reap benefits. I speculate we will see the development of Satellite Airports. 1 every 50 to 100nm in more dense areas - where the Oracle’s of the world can fly in middle managers on a very cheap turbine flight.

Then what about guys and gals like us, who stretch to have the luxury of a SR20? Well, to be honest, I don’t think it will expand too much. I think GA will remain much like private boating/yachting has remained. Certainly, it will benefit from the trickle down of technology, but I don’t see what need an SR20 is going to be able to fill for an AVERAGE FAMILY. It is simply far too expensive. Heck, it is too expensive to learn to fly. And THERE IS NO APPRECIABLE ECONOMIC BENEFIT. With a car, most people will tell you they need a car to live. Need a car to get to work, errands…etc. That’s why cars are cheap, everybody needs one. And guess what, in places they don’t really need them, a lot of people don’t have them. I grew-up in NYC and no middle-class family I knew had a car. I knew several wealthy people who didn’t even bother with cars. They had car services, the automotive equivalent to OUR PLANE.

Now, I’m sure there are plenty of GA people who will want to respond to this and say “hey I use my Piper for business…” I’m sure you do. I’m not saying GA will disappear. I’m saying it’s not going anywhere big. OUR PLANE is the future for the upper-middle class who move into aviation. No working family is going to spend more than the cost of theit house on something that brings them nothing, unless they can afford it and it brings them emotional pleasue. Hence my boating example. GA is forever constrained by the fact that 99% of us don’t need it. 99% of us WILL NEVER BE ABLE TO AFFORD IT!

Which also leads me to conclude that we shouldn’t hold our breaths for low-cost avionics or airplanes. We’ll get the trickle down. But companies like ARNAV are going to focus on the Gulfstreams and the Eclipses of the world. All those posts about where’s the upgrade for the ARNAV? As someone said, 'their engineers are working on application with a broad base - real time stuff that can go to corporate jets - and who can blame them - if they don’t they’ll die. Sure, We’ll always get some good stuff, but my guess is GA avionics will be like Apple computers (which I love) – people keep one foot in our market for the benefit of exposure. After all, PLANE & PILOT, PRIVATE PILOT, AOPA…etc. give more free advertising to Garmin then you can shake a stick at.

In the end then I think it will be hard for companies like Cirrus to revolutionize aviation. I think Cirrus will be the BMW of GA, but don’t expect to see a world of homes and hangers in any of our lifetimes, if ever. I hope I’m wrong, but when I read this board sometimes I feel like I’m watching the first President Bush (not a slam in anyway) who went to a grocery store during his Presedency and was shocked to see what things cost. We are a little out of touch, gang. GA isn’t a little to expensive. It’s way too expensive. It’s a luxury, and it’s going to stay that way.

As someone who shall remain anonymous said recently, when about to pay a $5,000 bill for his Annual: “I remember when I used to think that was a lot of money…”

It is.

Dean G

“I remember when I used to think that was a lot of money…”

It is.

Dean G

Dean,

A perfect post. You hit the nail on the head.

Mike.

I think a study of American innovation in general shows that it is NEED driven. Auto, commercial aviationl, personal computer, cell phone… All technologies the required a tremendous inital outlay of capital, and generated billions by making sure they filled a need, and at times created, for the AVERAGE PERSON.

Certainly in the short to medium term, the best proponent for smaller aviation is the corportate world. Simply because it is cheaper in the overall sense for companies to have a citation, and certainly will be cheaper to have an Eclipse. THis is why, as much as I love Cirrus, if I were an investing man, I’d put money into Eclipse. I know there will be a huge market for them. It is going to be cheaper for any mid-sized company to have an Eclipse at their disposal then to have a discount with American Airlines. Cheaper, and most importantly, FASTER. The Goldman Sachs of the world will have a fleet of these jets at the ready. I’ll bet anyone a dollar on it.

When this boom happens in the next ten years, private airports will be overrun with corporate FBO’s – and airports close to major business centers will reap benefits. I speculate we will see the development of Satellite Airports. 1 every 50 to 100nm in more dense areas - where the Oracle’s of the world can fly in middle managers on a very cheap turbine flight.

Then what about guys and gals like us, who stretch to have the luxury of a SR20? Well, to be honest, I don’t think it will expand too much. I think GA will remain much like private boating/yachting has remained. Certainly, it will benefit from the trickle down of technology, but I don’t see what need an SR20 is going to be able to fill for an AVERAGE FAMILY. It is simply far too expensive. Heck, it is too expensive to learn to fly. And THERE IS NO APPRECIABLE ECONOMIC BENEFIT. With a car, most people will tell you they need a car to live. Need a car to get to work, errands…etc. That’s why cars are cheap, everybody needs one. And guess what, in places they don’t really need them, a lot of people don’t have them. I grew-up in NYC and no middle-class family I knew had a car. I knew several wealthy people who didn’t even bother with cars. They had car services, the automotive equivalent to OUR PLANE.

Now, I’m sure there are plenty of GA people who will want to respond to this and say “hey I use my Piper for business…” I’m sure you do. I’m not saying GA will disappear. I’m saying it’s not going anywhere big. OUR PLANE is the future for the upper-middle class who move into aviation. No working family is going to spend more than the cost of theit house on something that brings them nothing, unless they can afford it and it brings them emotional pleasue. Hence my boating example. GA is forever constrained by the fact that 99% of us don’t need it. 99% of us WILL NEVER BE ABLE TO AFFORD IT!

Which also leads me to conclude that we shouldn’t hold our breaths for low-cost avionics or airplanes. We’ll get the trickle down. But companies like ARNAV are going to focus on the Gulfstreams and the Eclipses of the world. All those posts about where’s the upgrade for the ARNAV? As someone said, 'their engineers are working on application with a broad base - real time stuff that can go to corporate jets - and who can blame them - if they don’t they’ll die. Sure, We’ll always get some good stuff, but my guess is GA avionics will be like Apple computers (which I love) – people keep one foot in our market for the benefit of exposure. After all, PLANE & PILOT, PRIVATE PILOT, AOPA…etc. give more free advertising to Garmin then you can shake a stick at.

In the end then I think it will be hard for companies like Cirrus to revolutionize aviation. I think Cirrus will be the BMW of GA, but don’t expect to see a world of homes and hangers in any of our lifetimes, if ever. I hope I’m wrong, but when I read this board sometimes I feel like I’m watching the first President Bush (not a slam in anyway) who went to a grocery store during his Presedency and was shocked to see what things cost. We are a little out of touch, gang. GA isn’t a little to expensive. It’s way too expensive. It’s a luxury, and it’s going to stay that way.

As someone who shall remain anonymous said recently, when about to pay a $5,000 bill for his Annual: “I remember when I used to think that was a lot of money…”

It is.

Dean G

Dean,

GA is in a sort of Catch-22. It needs more members to sustain itself efficiently, but cant get more because not too many can afford.

Mario