Is every spin an accident or have some resulted in normal (non chute) landings?
Steve,
I don’t know the answer to that, and I’m probably going to get jumped on for saying this, but I just can’t understand how someone could (barring a tremendous atmospheric upset) inadvertently spin this airplane without a complete lapse in piloting skills. I don’t want to deemphasize the fact that we all need to be alert for the risk of spins, but in all of the maneuvering I have done throughout the flight envelope, it seems to me that a pilot would have to put in the exact opposite of correct control movements for an extended period of time to flip a Cirrus over.
But I wonder if there is anyone in the fleet of growing Cirrus experience who has spun, not pulled the chute and recovered?
If there is anyone, I think the embarrassment factor might keep them quiet which would be too bad because we could all learn from experiences like that.
…But I wonder if there is anyone in the fleet of growing Cirrus experience who has spun, not pulled the chute and recovered?..
Steve,
I know at least one guy who has — but I’m not naming names. (And no, it wasn’t me.) I’ve been told that conventional recovery techniques worked just fine.
Out of curiosity, do you know if there have been any inadvertent spins with successful recoveries in Lancair Columbias? (I hasten to add that I’m not denigrating the Columbias, which are superb airplanes — plastic airplanes rule! But I’m interested because since both your airplanes and ours have similar wing designs.)
I heard of someone who has done spins and recovered and also has done barrell roll maneuvers in a Cirrus. And no it is not me with a 2 day old pilots license!
That’s where it gets interesting. Given that most any certified plane must be hard to spin unintentionally, what is the experience of those pilots who do manage it? Surely a factory pilot who knows what’s going on might be expected to recover, but what about Joe average who messes up? I met one guy who spun a Mooney in a thunderstorm and recovered. In that case, the atmosphere was capable of getting him in the spin, but he had the plane and the skill (and the luck) to recover.
I figure for every accident story, there are probably 5 or 10 near miss stories that don’t get told. Hearing from anyone who’s recovered from an inadvertent spin would be valuable. Absence of such stories open the possibility that spins are the first part of an inevitable accident. I wonder which it is?
I figure for every accident story, there are probably 5 or 10 near miss stories that don’t get told. Hearing from anyone who’s recovered from an inadvertent spin would be valuable. Absence of such stories open the possibility that spins are the first part of an inevitable accident. I wonder which it is?
Well, not a spin story but along that dimension. In my early Cirrus time I fell into the outclimbing the autopilot trap. A 1000’fpm climb (*edited to correct from 'descent!) from sea level, not watching the decaying airspeed, and once the airspeed dropped below Vy the autopilot promptly pulled the nose right up to the stall. Pilot woke up as the nose came up through 15-20 degrees, pushed it over and rebuilt airspeed. A non-event (but I didn’t have a roaring in my headphones, other distractions, etc.) I have to think most of the near-misses you’re looking for are going to sound like this.
I figure for every accident story, there are probably 5 or 10 near miss stories that don’t get told. Hearing from anyone who’s recovered from an inadvertent spin would be valuable.
I would agree with that. I also have to say that, in general, COPA members are probably a bit better than average at fessing up because we have created a pretty good environment here for sharing stories and faults. However, I’m sure that there are valuable stories out there that haven’t been told.
The Lancair fleet is smaller, so there’s not as much experience over here. I haven’t heard of anyone inadvertently spinning. It would be very difficult to do - even more so than in a Cirrus. It would take either some extrordinary environmental event, or very aggressive handling. In either of these cases, The pilot might expect to need spin recovery techniques and be ready. I’d bet it would be impossible to be surprised by a spin in a Lancair. Certainly any kind of a “normal” mess-up like a failed base to final turn won’t result in a spin.
That’s the good news, the bad news is that if you do manage it, recovery is not guaranteed. At least not in the 300/350. In the 400 spin recovery has been thoroughly tested certified.
The main purpose of my question though is to get the experience of someone who’s been surprised by a spin. It’s one thing to plan a manoeuver then recover. It’s got to be an entirely different thing to find yourself in an unplanned spin. I wonder if any of these people have recovery stories to tell us?
Well, not a spin story but along that dimension. In my early Cirrus time I fell into the outclimbing the autopilot trap. A 1000’fpm descent from sea level, not watching the decaying airspeed, and once the airspeed dropped below Vy the autopilot promptly pulled the nose right up to the stall. Pilot woke up as the nose came up through 15-20 degrees, pushed it over and rebuilt airspeed. A non-event (but I didn’t have a roaring in my headphones, other distractions, etc.) I have to think most of the near-misses you’re looking for are going to sound like this.
1,000 foot per minute DESCENT from sea level… now that’s a trick!
On a serious note - I’d be very interested to hear whether there has been any systematic flight testing of the behavior of the autopilot, trim system and the aircraft in general in situations like you describe where the S-TEC can fly you right into a stall. I’ve been headed in that direction when airspeed started decaying rapidly as the S-TEC attempted to hold altitude as I was in the downdraft of a mountain wave. I saw what was happening and turned off the A/P well before the top of the white arc. I can see how this could also happen if one dials in a climb rate that the S-TEC cannot hold without degrading the airspeed dramatically.
With the Stockton and Canadian chute deployment situations both apparently developing with the A/P engaged, I think this bears more systematic examination. At a minimum, it seems like the transition and recurrent training should point out the dangers of an autopilot-induced stall.
(Note - I recognize this is not a hazard specific to Cirrus. I know of someone who had this happen in a 421 @ 25,000’. Scary stuff. There may, however, be Cirrus-specific warning signs or emergency corrective actions.)
I heard of someone who has done spins and recovered and also has done barrell roll maneuvers in a Cirrus…
I hate to be judgmental, but I will anyway:
This is:
illegal
unsafe
stupid and
inconsiderate
I say inconsiderate because if he is overstressing the airframe (which he very well might be) it may choose to fail later, perhaps with a family for four heading out on vacation.
I have many, many hours under my belt teaching aerobatics to neophytes. In a botched aileron roll or barrel roll you have absolutely no idea how quickly the airspeed gets right up to Vne in a Citabria, much less a Cirrus.
In reply to:
And no it is not me with a 2 day old pilots license!
Please, please, PLEASE don’t get the impression that this behavior is in any way normal. It’s reckless and potentially fatal behavior, the results of which can effect us all.
The main purpose of my question though is to get the experience of someone who’s been surprised by a spin. <<
Oh yea… When I moved from the clear skies of the west coast to the east in 1998, with my two week old pilot certificate, the first thing I did was go get checked out in a Katana at local airport. Visibility was typical east coast awful…on my check out ride, we were doing stalls under a 2100 foot ceiling (duh!); the instructor kept nagging me for more right rudder to hold heading (I was unaccustomed to flying in such haze)…after his fifth nag, I just slammed the right rudder. Whoosh…over we go into a right spin! I had insisted on getting spin training during my primary training, so I popped out of it after about half turn, losing only 500-600 feet. But pulling out at only 1200 AGL certainly raised my heartbeat.
He had no trouble signing me off, seeing how fast I got out of the spin. Now the judgement that led to exposure to a low altitude spin in the first place is another matter…but I think the instructor shared some of the blame for that!
Since then, I’ve accumulated a couple hundred hours in a Pitts, and spins are just for fun now. But that one time, I thanked my lucky stars I had had some spin training beforehand. Might the instructor have taken over and pulled out in time? Might a full plane parachute have been used in time, if available? Who knows…But I do consider myself living proof that spin training has saved at least one life…
The main purpose of my question though is to get the experience of someone who’s been surprised by a spin. It’s one thing to plan a manoeuver then recover. It’s got to be an entirely different thing to find yourself in an unplanned spin. I wonder if any of these people have recovery stories to tell us?
Steve,
How about being surprised by a stall? I posted about this nearly 2 1/2 years ago. The event may actually have been an incipient spin. Summary:
SR20, close to MGW, in departure configuration - full power, 50% flap (confirmed since that post). I posted that the entry was coordinated, but now would have to allow that it may not have been completely so, especially because of the excitement factor (very first flight in my brand new airplane). Also, since that post, I believe that Cirrus training requirements for departure configuration stalls have been changed to “recover at the first indication of a stall” - likely the stall warning horn. At that time, we continued the stall well beyond, into the full buffet regime (and unexpected wing drop). I have taught this maneuver many times in other airplanes, so I should have known that a wing can drop suddenly, especially if the pilot is not “on the ball” [:$].
As I posted, the recovery was completely conventional, and very quick.
I hope you don’t think I’m stupid enough to try this at any time! Someone asked a question if anyone had done it and I answered that I heard of someone who had. That’s it to the story.
I hope you don’t think I’m stupid enough to try this at any time!
Joe,
I don’t know that we’ve ever met, so I can’t really judge your judgment.
It would seem so obvious that no one would ever pull stunts like this, but your post shows that it’s not that obvious.
Student pilots and low-time pilots can be an impressionable lot. Having an experienced pilot or flight instructor regale you with tales of death-defying stunts can give a new pilot a skewed vision of what’s normal and/or acceptable.
That’s all I meant - it was specificaly NOT an attack on you, nor did I mean to imply anything about you or your judgment.
This brought to mind a “Never Again” from the AOPA magazine.
Link is here, though you may need to be logged in as an AOPA member to view it.
It’s copyrighted, but maybe someone can provide a better link? I’d copy and paste but don’t want to do so without permission.
As an aside, it was pretty clear from the article what flight school was involved. I spoke with the owner, and he told me that instructor involved had been identified and (of course) terminated.
Thanks for the article and no offense taken. Plus, I have enough of a hard time getting through the 737’s here in Bravo without worrying about how to barrel roll a plane!
I recall the article Eddie posted a link to, on looping a katana. I also trained in katanas years ago…I recall someone relaying a story abut trying to roll one…they managed, but lost several thousand feet in the process! Delightful planes to fly, but not for akro…(although some katanas are in fact approved for spins)
Not that I would ever try it but I thought the aileron roll was a 1 g maneuver and could be done by almost any airplane? The discovery wings channel shows the short about the first 707 jet that boeing made and the test pilot did a barrel roll for the crowd and had to go justify it to the head of boeing the next day.
Again, I am admittedly clueless about aerobatics so please infer no assertions of knowledge regarding rolls etc.
Not that I would ever try it but I thought the aileron roll was a 1 g maneuver and could be done by almost any airplane?
Rick,
Basically correct, IF DONE CORRECTLY!
Note: I think there’s a video online somewhere of Bob Hoover doing one with a glass of water on the panel)
What happens is the airplane is dived to just above recommended entry speed (for which there is none in a Cirrus) pulled up to a slightly nose-high attitude, then rolled.
Here’s what can EASILY happen:
The student has been instructed to hold FULL aileron in the direction of roll. He’s been further instructed to release most, but not all, of the back pressure. There’s also footwork, but I’ll ignore that for now.
Then, the student finds himself upside down, for possibly the first time. The reflex (strong) is to release some of the aileron, so the roll slows down. Then, since the maneuver seems to have almost stopped, a further reflex as the nose falls is to pull back on the stick, “falling out” of the maneuver and turning it into a “Split-S”.
Since the airspeed was already near maneuvering speed, the Split-S can get it to Vne and beyond in an instant. It happens very quickly in a Citabria, which is fairly “dirty” aerodynamically. It would likely happen MUCH faster with a clean airframe like the Cirrus. Once beyond Vne you’ve become a test pilot and better hope there’s no destructive flutter lying just beyond the envelope.
When I moved from the clear skies of the west coast to the east in 1998, with my two week old pilot certificate, the first thing I did was go get checked out in a Katana at local airport. Visibility was typical east coast awful…on my check out ride, we were doing stalls under a 2100 foot ceiling (duh!); the instructor kept nagging me for more right rudder to hold heading (I was unaccustomed to flying in such haze)…after his fifth nag, I just slammed the right rudder. Whoosh…over we go into a right spin! I had insisted on getting spin training during my primary training, so I popped out of it after about half turn, losing only 500-600 feet. But pulling out at only 1200 AGL certainly raised my heartbeat.