Dennis,
DITTO!
Don
Cirrus will claim the owner released them of liability, even if the plane was defective, by executing the purchase agreement and then by actually taking delivery of and flying the plane.
Just because it is written in the fine print doesn’t make it enforceable.
In reply to:
Sections 8 and 9 specifically release Cirrus from any liability
Unfortunately, that is at best only a contract between Cirrus and the purchaser. It does not bind other parties, such as the ones bringing suit in this case.
Same problem as getting your passengers to sign a liability release. If you kill a passenger, his survivors’ rights to sue have not been waived.
-Mike
In reply to:
I’ve also wondered whether the Lancair rudder limiter could interfere with the ability to recover from a spin.
I’m not an expert, but that one seems intuitive to me – limiting rudder travel would certainly inhibit entry into (many) spins, but one needs the rudder to recover conventionally, so any limitation in its travel might also inhibit the recovery.
I wonder if there’s ANY way to make it nearly impossible to spin, without simultaneously making recovery harder if you do get into one.
- Mike.
I’ve also wondered whether the Lancair rudder limiter could interfere with the ability to recover from a spin. Anyone have any thoughts on that?
The rudder limiter disengages when the manifold pressure drops below some level (the function of the rudder limiter is to limit rudder inputs during high power operations), pulling the throttle to idle (part of traditional spin recovery) will disengage the rudder limiter.
Let’s remember, too, that it’s very easy to exacerbate and flatten a spin without any rudder input at all. Aileron alone, opposite the spin’s direction will often do it. Again, without good training, improper reaction to an unusual attitude might, or often, will reduce chances of a successful recovery. It’s why the Beggs/Mueller spin recovery technique is the best emergency spin recovery technique known. I, for one, would always try to recover from a spin, assuming I had the altitude, with anti-spin inputs before I would pull the chute. Obviously, I would have a floor of a couple thousand feet, below which, I’d only use the chute. The ongoing debate is ultimately, what’s better to teach, spin training or spin avoidance.
Personally, I hold the opinion that it’s better to understand all the axes of flight, even the unusual ones, than to avoid them and be surprised one day.
In aerobatic competitions, at the level I was in, I would start my spin at about 2800 to 3000 feet. I never really felt I had that much of a margin in case I screwed up.
For what it’s worth,
Jeff
In reply to:
I wonder if there’s ANY way to make it nearly impossible to spin, without simultaneously making recovery harder if you do get into one.
A fly-by-wire system could do this.
-Mike
Ercoupe’s don’t spin. The little sign on the panel reads “characteristically incapable of spinning”
You don’t need fly-by-wire unless you mean the cables that connect the rudders to the control horn behind the seat. Fred seemed to know what be was doing in 1939.
Of course you need pretty beefy landing gear to land in the crab which is why this solution has not caught on (that and the “Real pilots …” problem.)
David
In reply to:
A fly-by-wire system could do this.
Mike,
You’re right! But… if the reason you got into the spin in the first place was a TOTAL electrical failure (no current in those wires!)…Ouch!
(I’m assuming that a TOTAL electrical failure could even happen in a FBW system).
- Mike.
In reply to:
The rudder limiter disengages when the manifold pressure drops below some level (the function of the rudder limiter is to limit rudder inputs during high power operations), pulling the throttle to idle (part of traditional spin recovery) will disengage the rudder limiter.
Interesting - I did not know that.
- Mike.
In reply to:
Ercoupe’s don’t spin. The little sign on the panel reads “characteristically incapable of spinning”
David,
You’re right! Even as I posted, I was wondering whether Ercoupe principles might be applicable in a modern design. Clearly, those principles cause compromise in other areas - for one thing, the pilot has NO independent rudder control, although many still debate whether that’s actually a disadvantage.
(Ercoupe max speed was 99 knots, 96 at 75% power; range was 360 NM, and best ROC was 550 fpm. On the plus side, this was done at under 6 gph, stall speed was 50 knots, and full-fuel payload was very decent for a 2-seater at 416 lbs).
- Mike.
In reply to:
I, for one, would always try to recover from a spin, assuming I had the altitude, with anti-spin inputs before I would pull the chute.
Verrrry Interesting. As I understand it, and based upon the previous discussions, if you do what you say, in a Cirrus, you are taking actions which are not tested or approved by Cirrus or the FAA, for these aircraft. Additionally, you are taking actions contrary to the POH, have not officially been tested, and could subject you to license sanctions, assuming you are alive.
From a legal perspective, you may be committing gross negligence, since you are actively and conciesly, disobeying the POH. That makes the potential not an accident but rather a reckless manuver.
Even assuming you are doing the logical or even the “right” thing, what you are doing is contrary to the POH which says, “you spin, you pull the chute” if I understand our earlier discussions correctly
I’m flying aerobatics now (in a Pitts S2C). First lesson, my instructor made me read the Beggs Mueller book, then we spent about 4 or 5 lessons doing nothing but spin recoveries from every imaginable orientation (I usually closed my eyes while he upset the plane, then was told to open them and recover. This way, I had no initial idea whether we were in an ordinary spin, inverted flat spin, or some seemingly motionless incipient state… the Beggs Mueller technique worked every time). Another early lesson involved a “rudder walk”…that is, stick all the way back, and hold the plane in a full stall, using only rudder, indefinitely. With practice, you can fly around in this state…full turns, etc, without ever leaving a stalled condition. In the Pitts, even if you get sloppy and drop the wing into a spin, you can pull it back up with nothing but rudder and return to a flat controlled stall without ever releasing the stick. A rudder walk is a great teaching exercise that teaches a student to harness the true power of the rudder. Anyone who has mastered this in their own plane should never enter a spin, since you can quite easily fly the plane down to the ground under a full stall and probably walk away from it.
Modern curriculums (at least my instructors) always teach us to recognize a stall, then apply immediate stall recovery. In essence, this taught me to be fearful of stalls. The rudder walk, on the other hand, taught me how to control the stall…gave me power over it, not fear of it. In stable, non-aerobatic planes, it’s easy as pie to do. I can fly my warrior all over the place without ever releasing the stall.
I supppose practising a much delayed recovery from a stall should not be done without also having appropriate spin training, so one might want to have the right instructor on board, as well as get some spin training first in an appropriate airplane. But for anyone who was taught as I was, and never learned how to control a stall, as opposed to recover from a stall, I highly recommend this type of training
In reply to:
if you do what you say, in a Cirrus, you are taking actions which are not tested or approved by Cirrus or the FAA, for these aircraft. Additionally, you are taking actions contrary to the POH, have not officially been tested, and could subject you to license sanctions, assuming you are alive.
From a legal perspective, you may be committing gross negligence, since you are actively and conciesly, disobeying the POH. That makes the potential not an accident but rather a reckless manuver.
Even assuming you are doing the logical or even the “right” thing, what you are doing is contrary to the POH which says, “you spin, you pull the chute” if I understand our earlier discussions correctly
Dennis,
Either your POH is different from mine, or it’s time to sit down and read it!
Mine says the following in Section 3 - Emergency Procedures (emphasis/color is mine):
If time and altitude permit, the following procedures may be used to
determine whether the aircraft is in a recoverable spiral/incipient spin
or is unrecoverable and, therefore, has departed controlled flight.
WARNING
In all cases, if the aircraft enters an unusual attitude from
which recovery is not expected before ground impact,
immediate deployment of the CAPS is required.
The minimum demonstrated altitude loss for a CAPS
deployment from a one-turn spin is 920 feet. Activation at
higher altitudes provides enhanced safety margins for
parachute recoveries. Do not waste time and altitude trying
to recover from a spiral/spin before activating CAPS.
**Emergency Procedures SR20
- Power Lever …IDLE
- Control Yoke … Neutral
- Rudder …Briskly Apply Opposite Yaw/Spin Direction**
Note
If disorientation precludes visual determination of the
direction of rotation, refer to the symbolic airplane in the turn
coordinator. If the spiral/spin was entered while applying
rudder, then the opposite rudder should be applied for
recovery.
**4. Just after the rudder reaches the stop, move the yoke briskly
forward far enough to break the stall. Full down elevator may be
required. Hold these control inputs until rotation stops. Premature
relaxation of control inputs may prolong the recovery. - After rotation stops, neutralize rudder, and make a smooth
recovery from the resulting dive. Add power as required. Be
prepared for possible engine power loss if rotation causes fuel
starvation.
If the above steps do not recover the aircraft** and/or it has been
determined that the aircraft has departed controlled flight: - CAPS …Activate
This is virtually identical to spin-recovery technique I used to teach in a Tomahawk (which spins easily!); it’s pretty standard for most airplanes. Further, it is precisely what Jeff said he would do; it’s NOT doing this that would be contrary to the POH, and would be “committing gross negligence”!
Afterthought: Gee, I wonder if the FAA would allow this technique to be recommended in the POH if it hadn’t been tested…? And of course, to test it would require that the airplane had first been put into a spin! [;)]
- Mike.
PS - I just looked at the SR22 POH – it contains the same text.
In reply to:
Even assuming you are doing the logical or even the “right” thing, what you are doing is contrary to the POH which says, “you spin, you pull the chute” if I understand our earlier discussions correctly
Dennis,
I’m not trying to be rude (you’ll note I didn’t participate in any ‘lawyer bashing’ [:)]), but when it comes to aircraft operation, I would strongly suggest that rather than relying on “earlier discussions”, one should consult the actual POH for guidance. My SR20 POH says to try what is basically a conventional spin recovery procedure (detailed steps listed in the POH), and if that doesn’t work, or if the aircraft is uncontrollable, or if the altitude is getting too low, then to pull the chute…
See for example, page 3-19 in the SR20 POH, which says:
“If time and altitude permit, the following procedures may be used to determine whether the aircraft is in a recoverable spiral/incipient spin or is unrecoverable and, therefore, has departed controlled flight.”
and then goes on to list pretty much standard spin-recovery techinques. Again, (repetition for emphasis), it’s made clear that if the plane is uncontrollable or if altitude is running out, then definitely pull the chute.
Truth is, Mike. I haven’t read it. I am following up on the comments made earlier in the thread which stated that the proper procedure to get out of a spin was to pull the chute. And further, that Cirrus had not certified the plane based upon the Chute rather than a spin recovery procedure.
If you tell me I am wrong, I am going to have to spend the whole day re-reading all of those threads
G_D knows, I could be confused and often am.
I can concur with Mike and Steve. I just referenced the Cirrus Design SR22 Quick Reference Checklist that I use in the aircraft and it says the same thing(paraphrasing): Altitude Permitting, try to recover. Not so much altitude, pull the chute.
Part of my point with my original post is I remember reading or hearing that the accident aircraft’s spin went flat. Please let me know if I’m wrong, but the only way I know to get the spin flat is keep the power in and apply opposite aileron while in a normal spin. I’ve done it in a Pitts S2B-quite a ride.
Therefore, if what I heard is true, the occupants of the accident aircraft did precisely the WRONG thing by either being out of CG (aft) or making incorrect control inputs before attempting to pull the chute, if they did try.
Jeff
D’oh, Yikes I can’t believe it. I am dumb twice in one day.
I better go flying instead of doing so much typing. Flying clears my head.
In reply to:
Truth is, Mike. I haven’t read it.
Dennis,
I, too, am not being mean – like Steve, I have also not participated in any lawyer-bashing. I’m sure you mean that you HAVE read it, and you may have forgotten about that particular section, right? I’m pretty sure that knowing the content of the POH (generally by reading) is a prerequisite to flying any airplane legally.
- Mike.
Right. . . . Hay Mike. . . Woulld you be interested in being my lawyer?