Garmin Quirk

Last Sunday I was flying to The Sturgeon Bay, WI airport, the official symbol for which is SUE, as it is on the Jepp approach plate. I had my flight plan in the Garmin and everything was fine until I hit the PROC button to select an approach. No approaches appeared. I quickly switched to old fashioned methods and safely landed. I thought there must be something wrong with the Garmin or my database. On the way back to Palwaukee, KPWK, everything worked fine. I called Garmin and was told that even though the symbol for Sturgeon Bay is SUE it must be entered in the Garmin as KSUE. It needs the K to know that it is an airport. When I looked at the Jepp plate I saw the problem The NDB at the airport is also SUE. That is why my flight plan worked. I was flying to the NDB which is right on the airport.
If it says somewhere in the Garmin manual that you should put a K in front of an airport symbol I haven’t been able to find it.

Last Sunday I was flying to The Sturgeon Bay, WI airport, the official symbol for which is SUE, as it is on the Jepp approach plate. I had my flight plan in the Garmin and everything was fine until I hit the PROC button to select an approach. No approaches appeared. I quickly switched to old fashioned methods and safely landed. I thought there must be something wrong with the Garmin or my database. On the way back to Palwaukee, KPWK, everything worked fine. I called Garmin and was told that even though the symbol for Sturgeon Bay is SUE it must be entered in the Garmin as KSUE. It needs the K to know that it is an airport. When I looked at the Jepp plate I saw the problem The NDB at the airport is also SUE. That is why my flight plan worked. I was flying to the NDB which is right on the airport.
If it says somewhere in the Garmin manual that you should put a K in front of an airport symbol I haven’t been able to find it.

I don’t have a garmin manual, but the garmin gps i fly in a rental plane locally uses the same format.

The “K” prefix always denotes the center of the airport position. The three letter NDB (or VOR also) denotes the actual position of that particular nav aid. If the navaid and the airport center coincide are they the same? I don’t know.

bill

Jim,

Actually if you look at page 90 in the GNS 430 manual under waypoint pages you will see that the GNS 430 uses ICAO identifier for all airports. What that means is that any airport the identifier for which is all letters (e.g. ORD, PWK, DPA, SUE etc) requires a K in front of the identifier to tell the unit it’s an airport. If the identifier contains letters (e.g. D87), no K is required.

As I’m sure you know when you enter the waypoint entry mode you always get a K displayed on the assumption you’re going to enter an airport. If you eliminate the K you will enter a VOR or NDB and when you hit enter the first time it will say “OBK VOR” for example. If the Navaid is co-located with the airport you will navigate just fine to the airport but when you look for an approach it won’t be there since airports, not navaids have approaches.
I don’t think it’s a “quirk” of the Garmin. I think all GPS and FMS packages use the same convention.

By the way it becomes an issue when an airport and Navaid are not co-located (e.g. RFD or DPA in the Chicago area).
Jerry Seckler N1970

Last Sunday I was flying to The Sturgeon Bay, WI airport, the official symbol for which is SUE, as it is on the Jepp approach plate. I had my flight plan in the Garmin and everything was fine until I hit the PROC button to select an approach. No approaches appeared. I quickly switched to old fashioned methods and safely landed. I thought there must be something wrong with the Garmin or my database. On the way back to Palwaukee, KPWK, everything worked fine. I called Garmin and was told that even though the symbol for Sturgeon Bay is SUE it must be entered in the Garmin as KSUE. It needs the K to know that it is an airport. When I looked at the Jepp plate I saw the problem The NDB at the airport is also SUE. That is why my flight plan worked. I was flying to the NDB which is right on the airport.

If it says somewhere in the Garmin manual that you should put a K in front of an airport symbol I haven’t been able to find it.

Be careful and “Know your system”

Most modern GPS/Lorans will require you to place a K to idendify that you are going to an airport within the 48 states in the US. If there is a number in the airport ID the K is not required (meaning don’t use the K) Know your sytem, play with it and always challenge the system “is this correct” I always check using the distance and the course line, is it the right direction and how about the distance. It is easy to mispell (no! is it?) Have a great Cirrus flight and get your IFR so you can go flying…

Cheers,

Woor

Last Sunday I was flying to The Sturgeon Bay, WI airport, the official symbol for which is SUE, as it is on the Jepp approach plate. I had my flight plan in the Garmin and everything was fine until I hit the PROC button to select an approach. No approaches appeared. I quickly switched to old fashioned methods and safely landed. I thought there must be something wrong with the Garmin or my database. On the way back to Palwaukee, KPWK, everything worked fine. I called Garmin and was told that even though the symbol for Sturgeon Bay is SUE it must be entered in the Garmin as KSUE. It needs the K to know that it is an airport. When I looked at the Jepp plate I saw the problem The NDB at the airport is also SUE. That is why my flight plan worked. I was flying to the NDB which is right on the airport.
If it says somewhere in the Garmin manual that you should put a K in front of an airport symbol I haven’t been able to find it.

I don’t have a garmin manual, but the garmin gps i fly in a rental plane locally uses the same format.

The “K” prefix always denotes the center of the airport position. The three letter NDB (or VOR also) denotes the actual position of that particular nav aid. If the navaid and the airport center coincide are they the same? I don’t know.

bill

The course line and distance checked out perfectly because the NDB and airport are in the same location. I see now that there is a little symbol that appears when you are making entries into the flight plan that tells you what kind of a facility you are entering.

Be careful and “Know your system”

Most modern GPS/Lorans will require you to place a K to idendify that you are going to an airport within the 48 states in the US. If there is a number in the airport ID the K is not required (meaning don’t use the K) Know your sytem, play with it and always challenge the system “is this correct” I always check using the distance and the course line, is it the right direction and how about the distance. It is easy to mispell (no! is it?) Have a great Cirrus flight and get your IFR so you can go flying…

Thank you. I see that it is on P.94 in my Garmin manual. What is confusing is that the Jepp approach plate for Sturgeon Bay shows the airport identifier as SUE. The plates for Palwaukee show KPWK. I was getting the identifier off of the approach plate. Since Jepp makes the plates and the database you would think they could be consistent.

Jim,

Actually if you look at page 90 in the GNS 430 manual under waypoint pages you will see that the GNS 430 uses ICAO identifier for all airports. What that means is that any airport the identifier for which is all letters (e.g. ORD, PWK, DPA, SUE etc) requires a K in front of the identifier to tell the unit it’s an airport. If the identifier contains letters (e.g. D87), no K is required.

As I’m sure you know when you enter the waypoint entry mode you always get a K displayed on the assumption you’re going to enter an airport. If you eliminate the K you will enter a VOR or NDB and when you hit enter the first time it will say “OBK VOR” for example. If the Navaid is co-located with the airport you will navigate just fine to the airport but when you look for an approach it won’t be there since airports, not navaids have approaches.
I don’t think it’s a “quirk” of the Garmin. I think all GPS and FMS packages use the same convention.

By the way it becomes an issue when an airport and Navaid are not co-located (e.g. RFD or DPA in the Chicago area).
Jerry Seckler N1970

Last Sunday I was flying to The Sturgeon Bay, WI airport, the official symbol for which is SUE, as it is on the Jepp approach plate. I had my flight plan in the Garmin and everything was fine until I hit the PROC button to select an approach. No approaches appeared. I quickly switched to old fashioned methods and safely landed. I thought there must be something wrong with the Garmin or my database. On the way back to Palwaukee, KPWK, everything worked fine. I called Garmin and was told that even though the symbol for Sturgeon Bay is SUE it must be entered in the Garmin as KSUE. It needs the K to know that it is an airport. When I looked at the Jepp plate I saw the problem The NDB at the airport is also SUE. That is why my flight plan worked. I was flying to the NDB which is right on the airport.

If it says somewhere in the Garmin manual that you should put a K in front of an airport symbol I haven’t been able to find it.

I noticed that the Sturgeon Bay plates are all dated 1995. That was before the 430 so maybe updated plates are solving that problem.

Thank you. I see that it is on P.94 in my Garmin manual. What is confusing is that the Jepp approach plate for Sturgeon Bay shows the airport identifier as SUE. The plates for Palwaukee show KPWK. I was getting the identifier off of the approach plate. Since Jepp makes the plates and the database you would think they could be consistent.

I checked and the current SUE charts are all dated from 1995. I suspect that at the next revision they will show the airport as KSUE but in the meantime just remember that all airports in the US that have letter only identifiers must be preceeded with a K for use in the 430.

Jeppesen just had a series of 15-10 “infomertials” in the aviation magazines (I think I saw them in Flying and AOPA Pilot) that dealt with IFR charts and databases that went over all this stuff. I heard they were going to make a series of reprints available. If you can get hold of it it makes an excellent source for understanding charting conventions and why things are labeled as they are.

Jerry Seckler

Thank you. I see that it is on P.94 in my Garmin manual. What is confusing is that the Jepp approach plate for Sturgeon Bay shows the airport identifier as SUE. The plates for Palwaukee show KPWK. I was getting the identifier off of the approach plate. Since Jepp makes the plates and the database you would think they could be consistent.

Jim,

Actually if you look at page 90 in the GNS 430 manual under waypoint pages you will see that the GNS 430 uses ICAO identifier for all airports. What that means is that any airport the identifier for which is all letters (e.g. ORD, PWK, DPA, SUE etc) requires a K in front of the identifier to tell the unit it’s an airport. If the identifier contains letters (e.g. D87), no K is required.

As I’m sure you know when you enter the waypoint entry mode you always get a K displayed on the assumption you’re going to enter an airport. If you eliminate the K you will enter a VOR or NDB and when you hit enter the first time it will say “OBK VOR” for example. If the Navaid is co-located with the airport you will navigate just fine to the airport but when you look for an approach it won’t be there since airports, not navaids have approaches.
I don’t think it’s a “quirk” of the Garmin. I think all GPS and FMS packages use the same convention.

By the way it becomes an issue when an airport and Navaid are not co-located (e.g. RFD or DPA in the Chicago area).
Jerry Seckler N1970

Last Sunday I was flying to The Sturgeon Bay, WI airport, the official symbol for which is SUE, as it is on the Jepp approach plate. I had my flight plan in the Garmin and everything was fine until I hit the PROC button to select an approach. No approaches appeared. I quickly switched to old fashioned methods and safely landed. I thought there must be something wrong with the Garmin or my database. On the way back to Palwaukee, KPWK, everything worked fine. I called Garmin and was told that even though the symbol for Sturgeon Bay is SUE it must be entered in the Garmin as KSUE. It needs the K to know that it is an airport. When I looked at the Jepp plate I saw the problem The NDB at the airport is also SUE. That is why my flight plan worked. I was flying to the NDB which is right on the airport.

If it says somewhere in the Garmin manual that you should put a K in front of an airport symbol I haven’t been able to find it.