In reply to:
Yet another datapoint: I try to use “Leaving seven [thousand] descending five thousand”; it avoids the “to” that you had in your example.
I like that, too!
- Mike.
In reply to:
Yet another datapoint: I try to use “Leaving seven [thousand] descending five thousand”; it avoids the “to” that you had in your example.
Ditto.
Marty
In reply to:
“Leaving seven [thousand] descending five thousand”
A third thumbs up for this economical form. Unfortunately the AIM is a source of ambiguous communications, as in this extract:
(a) When operating in a radar environment: On initial contact, the pilot should inform the controller of the aircraft’s assigned altitude preceded by the words “level,” or “climbing to,” or “descending to,” as appropriate; and the aircraft’s present vacating altitude, if applicable.
EXAMPLE-
- (Name) CENTER, (aircraft identification), LEVEL (altitude or flight level).
- (Name) CENTER, (aircraft identification), LEAVING (exact altitude or flight level), CLIMBING TO OR DESCENDING TO (altitude of flight level).
For a controllers eye view of these communications you can look to Don Brown’s Avweb columns, such as Tape Talk.
-Curt
In reply to:
“Okay one suga pop, descend and…”
Wouldn’t hear that in the Northeast.
Not true…
I heard Wilkes Barre approach and New York Center both use Sugar Pop last weekend.
In reply to:
Or the time I confirmed my assigned transponder, 4444.
“four, four, four, four, for four Alpha Zulu”
Walt,
Pretty cool!
OK, now getting totally off-topic… can you construct a proper English sentence in which the word “and” occurs six times in sequence?
- M.
In reply to:
can you construct a proper English sentence in which the word “and” occurs six times in sequence?
Oops… sorry… that should be five times in sequence. I don’t know of a sentence with SIX ‘ands’ in a row!
- Mike.
In reply to:
can you construct a proper English sentence in which the word “and” occurs six times in sequence?
Mike,
I have problems constructing proper english sentences even w/o the “and” challange!
Okay I’ll bite. What’s the answer?
Walt
In reply to:
Okay I’ll bite. What’s the answer?
Walt,
The answer to the challenge, Can you construct a proper English sentence in which the word “and” occurs six times in sequence? is as follows - but first, I have to set the scene.
A man is putting up a sign for the play, “The King and I” outside a theater, one letter at a time. He’s just about done when a passer-by says:
Excuse me - I thought you’d want to know that the spaces between “The King” and “And”, and “And” and “I”, are not equal.
Not exactly the kind of thing that comes up in everyday conversation, but it can happen! Oh, it’s five times, not six, as I mentioned in my follow-up post.
- Mike.
Mike,
A variation, if a sign reads "Roland and Andrew:
"You haven’t got the spaces right between “Rol” and “and” and “and” and “and” and “and” and “And” and “And” and “rew.” [H]
And that’s that!
Walt
Walt,
YOU WIN! [:)]
- Mike.
Interesting. I was taught to use the phraseology:
ATC: “N508JS, descend and maintain five thousand.”
N508JS: “Descend and maintain five thousand. Out of seven thousand for five thousand now, five zero eight juliet sierra.”
Wordy, but it includes the readback, the fact that I am complying now, and my callsign so he knows its me that answered. (BTW, “out of” has the same # of syllables as “leaving”)
Always looking shorter way to get the point across. Will try ya’lls way [;)]
In reply to:
I was taught to use the phraseology:
…
N508JS: “Descend and maintain five thousand. Out of seven thousand for five thousand now, five zero eight juliet sierra.”
FWIW I was taught to use this catechism:
ATC: “N711DZ, climb and maintain seven thousand feet.”
N711DZ: “Five thousand climbing seven thousand, seven one one delta zulu.”
What I was told: (a) avoid “to” and “for,” for reasons already mentioned, (b) shorter = better. I offer this as a data point about different styles of teaching, not as a debate. Next time I’m in really busy airspace, like NYC, I’ll listen closely to the prevailing styles.
I was taught this way as well. I like the economy of words, and the avoidance of “to” and “for.”
In reply to:
I simply respond “Five thousand, Two Papa Lima.”
Gordon, I’m relieved to hear this from a pro, ie you. I’m relieved because, as I mentioned elsewhere, I was taught to say “seven thousand descending five thousand,” but 90 per cent of time what I actually say is just, “five thousand, 711DZ.” No one has given me trouble about it, but I assumed it was a lapse. Now I’ll do it on purpose, with your blessing!
In reply to:
In response to “Cirrus Two Papa Lima, descend and maintain five thousand” I simply respond “Five thousand, Two Papa Lima.”
In his (aforelinked) articles, Don Brown says that controllers really want the prefix words before numbers, ie “Descending 5000” not just “5000”. He gives two reasons:
-Radios very often clip the first one or two syllables of every transmission. So if he hears the readback “…thousand 2PL” he needs to verify. If he hears “…ing 5000 2PL” he’s ok.
-Not so much with altitudes, but headings and airspeeds can be confused; a readback of “140 120 301” doesn’t tell him much about what you understood. Altitudes join that confusion if you enter the flightlevels and don’t prefix with “Flight Level”.
So, I always try to add the descriptive word before any numbers.
-Curt
In reply to:
Gordon, I’m relieved to hear this from a pro, ie you. I’m relieved because, as I mentioned elsewhere, I was taught to say “seven thousand descending five thousand,” but 90 per cent of time what I actually say is just, “five thousand, 711DZ.”
I too was taught to report the altitude that you’re vacating, about 30 years ago when GA airplanes with Mode C were rare indeed and there were a lot of non-radar environments (Santa Barbara among them). It took conscious effort several years ago to break the habit.
There are of course still times when you do report altitude leaving, such as when you check in with a new sector or facility while in the midst of a climb or descent, and of course when the controller asks you to “report leaving 6000.”
There is nothing in Order 7110.65N (the contoller’s bible) that requires them to get a readback of the altitude you’re leaving when you’re in radar contact with a verified Mode C.
OK, purists - bring on the heat!
In reply to:
OK, purists - bring on the heat!
Gordon,
No heat from me – I’m relieved to hear about this. I was still under the misapprehension that we are always required to report vacating any altitude. Given that we’re not, saying simply “Five thousand, Four Mike Romeo” makes sense, and it’s what I’ll do from now on.
If we’re given a “Descend Pilot’s Discretion Maintain…”, is it then appropriate to report leaving the current altitude?
- Mike.
In reply to:
If we’re given a “Descend Pilot’s Discretion Maintain…”, is it then appropriate to report leaving the current altitude?
I used to, but I don’t anymore. Evey time I did I could hear the annoyance in the controller’s voice that I was making him respond to an unnecessary call and interrupting his donut.
PD defined:
PILOT’S DISCRETION When used in conjunction with altitude assignments, means that ATC has offered the pilot the option of starting climb or descent whenever he wishes and conducting the climb or descent at any rate he wishes. He may temporarily level off at any intermediate altitude. However, once he has vacated an altitude, he may not return to that altitude.
IMHO, There is no need to inform ATC of the altitude change.
Quoting a controller from usenet:
Speaking as a radar controller, IÂ’d go with the original sentiment. [The controller’s handbook] specifically states that a report isnÂ’t required…and I never expect to hear one when IÂ’ve given someone PD descent or climb. A lot of pilots report leaving the altitude anyway, and the call is looked upon as extraneous by everyone in our facility.
ItÂ’s my job to keep track of when an aircraft leaves an altitude in a PD descent or climb… If I didnÂ’t have the time to keep track, thereÂ’s no way IÂ’d give a PD clearance.
In reply to:
If we’re given a “Descend Pilot’s Discretion Maintain…”, is it then appropriate to report leaving the current altitude?
If it was important for the controller to know exactly when you start your descent, he wouldn’t have left it to your discretion in the first place. Basicallly what he is saying is I have no potential conflicting traffic at either the altitude you are at, the one you are going to, or anything in between.
Interesting conversation. I have always been instructed that it is correct to report upon vacating an altitude. (I admit that I would be hard pressed to find a reference, especially at work.) However, I have from time to time been instructed by the controller to report leaving an altitude. This has occurred when on VFR flight following, especially in or around Class B.
From a personal perspective, I would think that the controller maintains a 3D image in their mind of their airspace. By reporting altitude changes, it keeps the picture current. Perhaps there is some regionality to the preference?
Unlike this Forum, [;)] I also adjust the brevity of my conversation to the circumstances, ie, quantity of other radio traffic. Flying around Atlanta, I normally use the most brief of calls. However, when flying the same airspace at 3 AM, I have enjoyed long conversations about the quantity of coffee being consumed by the controller or about my dog’s piloting, navigation and communication skills. (If he flies, he is in the Remarks section of the flight plan.)
Marty