I find it extremely difficult to find a position on this. Bear with me for a lengthy post with some background.
On one hand, I am not a flight instructor, don’t even play one on TV. So I don’t see much of how other pilots fly. OTOH, I am, certainly by US standards, a lowish-time pilot at about 900 hours (including 120 in gliders, which may matter), flying not even 100 hours per year. Those are divided mostly between a Tobago, a Beech F33A and an SR22TN. I have time in 150s, 172s, 182s and PA28, DA40, too. I am somewhat of a computer geek.
All that said, I think the SR22 is real easy to fly, probably the easiest of the bunch, especially IFR. I would consider the SR20 and the DA40 to be very similar indeed. I think the glass cockpits (both of them, AND the GTN/DFC90 combo) are easy to learn and pretty much self-explanatory after some practice. I wouldn’t fly approaches to legal minimums without getting more current, but consider myself proficient enough for “normal” IMC. I have no problems at all taking all three aircraft into short and soft fields, close to the limits in the POH. I consider myself safe and reasonable while doing all this. As I have said before, I think the “cult of the oh-so-hard-to-fly Cirrus” is totally overblown, somewhat ridiculous and bound to drive people like the OP away in droves.
Yet, by your standards, and from your posts here I can only come to the conclusion that your opinion carries considerable weight, I’m clearly and very much an accident waiting to happen.
Whether you ever fly a cirrus or not ( and I hope you do) I believe COPA is well worth it
Wished I had joined years before buying my Cirrus. Safety is foremost. Thinking about flying is part of keeping you sharp. That is why CFI can log time even if CFI never touches the controls… Always mentally flying the plan.
Mentally picture what others are doing and think what you should/would do (or not do).
Welcome to COPA.
I have to agree with Thomas on this one and am interested to hear Alex expand on his thinking. I rented Cirrus periodically during 2001-2007, accumulating ~200 hr, an average of well under 50 hr yearly. During this time I flew other types as well, mainly Cessna, for an average yearly total time of perhaps 80-90 hr. I did not feel like an “accident waiting to happen,” either IFR or VFR, nor did the CSIPs I flew with for BFRs and twice yearly IPCs (all in the Cirrus) express any particular reservations.
I do agree however that the most important thing for a Cirrus newbie to pay attention to is speed control on approach and landing. I don’t think this is any different from some other types, e.g. Grumman Tiger, Mooneys of almost any vintage even the earlier M20C-F. Read up on this in the COPA resources (COPApedia, magazine archives) and make sure your instructor is not of the old school “80 on short final and not a kt slower” mindset.
One thing to consider if you’re only flying 50 hr is that sole ownership at this level is economically ludicrous, you’ll be paying at least 2X-3X more per hour to fly than if you rented a comparable plane. If that matters to you–it may not if you have the money to spend–then consider others’ advice here to get into a club or joint ownership arrangement.
Kevin I’ll summarize that if you are Chuck Yeager, than 50 hours per year won’t be an issue. but if you are like the majority of everyone else out there (that does not fly moneys and Grumman tigers like you and me) then 50 hours per year will not be sufficient.
That’s my opinion so take it for what it’s worth
I think I’ll stay out of Cirrus. Other alternatives are safer, cheaper and do not require a name change. I prefer not to change my name to Chuck Yeager [:)]
Thanks to all for interesting and useful discussion.
Paul, sorry you were put off but Alex’s high standards, I would say you shouldn;t give up so easily, while its important to stay current , there’s a difference between 50 hours and one hour 50 times,
I deeply feel that there;s a hugh difference in the way people that rent planes fly and the way a lot of people fly Cirrus’s, ir for business and long cross country flights. At the 50 hrs a yr level, your flts will probably not go more than 2 hrs from home, and then rarely overnight, those limits make a big difference,
Secondly, i said it earlier, the Cirrus is so easy to fly, perhaps a bit less forgiving, but never the less, far less complicated… I say its not the plane but the mission,'that creates the risks.
Give it a try , rent the damn thing for a while, it will give you some experience,and you’ll see how you like it,
You don;t have to change your name either, and BTW, Yeager ran a P51 off the end of a runway a few yrs ago,so it can happen to the best of them
I agree with Fred on this one. I think the real lesson here is how the hours are flown. While I think that 50 hours a year can be a marginal number in and of itself, if it is spent flying one hour a week doing local trips and touch and goes where you can do 10 T&Gs in under 30 minutes, it is a totally different number than flying once a month on a four hour round trip with two full stop landings. Different flying altogether.
I would also say that going up with several instructors that each give you the absolute honest, brutal truth on what your flying skills and general flying aptitude are can be important. We all tend to overestimate our flying skills, and an honest assessment from a neutral party can be healthy.
The Cirrus, while a great flying airplane, does not lend itself to pilots with lax stick and rudder skills, lazy feet, the the easily distracted and the uninformed. So I guess after all that in general I agree with Alex, but there are many exceptions depending on who you are as a pilot. The plane is an absolute blast to fly, so if you are flying 50 hours in a 172 or Warrior you will more than likely be flying a lot more in a SR.
Alex, I haven’t always agreed with everything you have said - although, more lately - but I think you are dead right on this. One hour a week is just not enough time to stay safe in a Cirrus. Especially true if this is Hobbs time, and 15 minutes of each flight is in the run-up.
The problem is that you can’t manage 100% of your flight environment all the time. Crosswinds kick up, idiots try to kill you in the pattern, controllers get confused, etc. Managing risks when the unexpected happens is not always possible
If you are going to own a Cirrus and fly a few hours a month, keep an instructor as your traveling companion.
The simple answer is get a Cirrus, but just have more fun by flying it more.
Well, congrats, Alex! Great job! Every pilot we can talk out of flying is certainly much safer than all those Yeager-wannabes still taking to the air, right? Not flying will make absolutely certain you are not endangered by flying - exactly the approach to GA safety authorities here in Europe seem to take.
Yet again, we have seen the enemy: It is us!
Paul, frankly, if you are convinced by some post on an internet forum that easily, I have a bridge to sell you… By all means, go out, rent a Cirrus with an instructor and build your own opinion! It’s anything but hard to do that. FWIW, I doubt that “other alternatives are safer” is a true statement.
Hi Paul…you ask good questions and I think you are going to be a safe pilot regardless of the plane you fly because you reflect an attitude of safety and that is perhaps the best defense you have to an accident. If I may, I have some perspective on your questions…I would summarize your overarching question in 3 broad categories as follows:
I.
ATTITUDE
The FAA has identified five attitudes re: flying that have proven problematic, to wit: machoism, it won’t happen to me, anti authority…be aware of these human frailties and you will enhance your safety. Check this:
I have to depart from some of my friends here who may have unwittingly discouraged you from investing in what I consider one of my best decisions in my life…the plane has offered me great mobility and enhanced my quality of life. I do, however approach it with great respect and do not consider it a casual hobby. The overwhelming majority of fellow pilots here have the same safety centric approach – in fact, that is COPAs mission.
So, I do agree that for the reasons stated above, the Cirrus is not a play toy and has to be respected, but, millions of accident free hours have been flown and you can as well – 50 hours a year is marginal for any plane! IMO. I would guess you will fly more if you own a plane and start looking for places to fly as a natural progression. But, here is my point – people die in Cirrus’ from mostly the same things that claim pilots in other planes. It is my belief that if we simply avoid the avoidable we can mitigate the overwhelming causes of accidents and I believe the majority of accidents are avoidable, with self discipline and small compromises, to wit:
MANEUVERING – several prominent Cirrus accidents fall into this category including the most publicized being Corry Liddle, the Yankees pitcher who with his instructor flew into a building in NYC; another by a Cirrus sales rep who announced his arrival for his friend by buzzing his friends home at a high rate of speed and entered what I believe was a high speed stall. An eye witness described it as a barrel roll…still another attempted to navigate/scud run up a river bed in declining weather and tragically hit a hillside…there are others. These accidents are clearly avoidable and should be avoided at all cost regardless of airplane, as they are proven to cost many lives each year.
VFR into IMC – one of the biggest gotchas out there…we read over and over where even experienced pilots do this and some are even instrument rated; however, this activity is proven as fatal as it is avoidable. just resolve not to fly into clouds IF you are not on a legal IFR flight plan. PERIOD.
ICE - Only occurs by flying into frozen clouds. And I would say perhaps especially in our planes, many of which have weeping wings affording some degree of ice forgiveness which MAY cause a false sense of security luring some pilots into hazardous conditions…on the other hand, if you simply resolve not to fly into clouds at freezing temps, you have eliminated any possibility that you will die from ice. Many here disagree with with my conservative standard. The FAA tried to impose this standard, but, met such a back lash that it weakened the rule and pilots continue to die from ice. I too violate my own standard occasionally if it’s simply redicoulous, such as in clouds that I know don’t contain ice AND provided there are easy – very easy – outs…right, left, above or below; but, these are exceptions. If there are solid clouds and it’s freezing, I ain’t going in them and yes, this has caused me to scrub missions and go commercial – twice that I recall in 6 years and 850 Cirrus hours.
CONVECTION – remarkably, pilots every year die from flying into thunderstorms that even jet liners couldn’t penetrate successfully. Our MFD NEXRAD displays eliminate virtually any chance of mistakenly flying into thunderstorms, so just resolve not to do this and you will not die from flying into a thunderstorm. PERIOD.
MAINTENANCE – make sure any plane you get into is well maintained according to the manufactures standards and you have lopped off 10% of the risk of flying in general aviation. We read where some owners – none here – go for years without an annual and there is no defense for a poorly maintained airplane. This opens up a whole other conversation of which much has been written here…
III.
COMPETENCE
Unquestionably maintaining competence is a big part of flying; but, it does not matter what the activity, practice is essential – golfers, musicians, and pilots all have to practice in order to avoid consequences…so here are my thoughts.
TRANSITION TRAINING – in response to your question above, Cirrus developed a minimum 25 hour syllabus of flying and ground school designed to train pilots to competently fly the planes. Quality may vary from school to school, and instructor to instructor, so find good ones! They are plentiful. If you tell us where you are, folks here may be able to suggest a good instructor.
EXPERIENCE – as others have said, there is no substitute for experience and building time…this is where your 50 hour estimate causes some concern and I would say regardless of plane chosen. If I don’t fly for a couple of weeks, I am a tinge anxious for the first 10 minutes until I fully re- acclimate and this is regardless of plane. So, 50 hours a year is probably ok, but, just barely IF we are talking VFR in good VMC!!!..also, transition training for me was likewise just the beginning of my training. LOW TIME IN TYPE is another big gotcha in general aviation, so I took a safety pilot for another 50 hours until I was totally aggravated that he became a back seat driver…I then knew I was ready to go it alone. I believe this applies regardless of type.
RECURRENT TRAINING – airline pilots who fly for a living several days a week have mandatory training 2x per year. Why shouldn’t we, regardless of type! People tend to become complacent and may allow undesirable habits to seep into our flying – recurrent training with a good instructor is the antidote, regardless of type. We had a series of tragic landing accidents a couple of years ago and they caused us to hyper focus on our landing techniques. The results in a decline (not elimination) of landing accidents speak for themselves. This reminds me, I am severely over due and will schedule this morning!
Every Cirrus accident since the beginning is available on the NTSB accident database –
All makes and models are available and I encourage you read them as they are instructive for how to stay alive. You can avoid most activities that have claimed others.
Similarly, the FAA annually publishes the accident statistics for the prior year in what it calls the NALL REPORT. It is accessible here:
Regrettably, you really only need to read one years report – any year really, as the accidents tend to repeat, year in and year out…So, again, if you learn the source of accidents and prepare yourself accordingly, I believe you can enjoy this hobby safely; but, yes, it does require effort and commitment, regardless of type…and I enjoy the learning almost as much as the flying…
In that vein, I believe an instrument rating is a very valuable added component of safety and I encourage you to obtain the rating. Having said that, you must remain current to fly instruments safely…even if you never fly on an instrument flight plan, the added precision and learning you obtain from the training is well worth the investment.
I love flying, my SR - 22 and believe you can as well. I am late for work…enough already.
An interesting question. Here is my viewpoint: Cirrus is the safest designed single engine aircraft on the market from an engineering point of view. With redundant systems, advanced avionics, and of course a parachute! Cirrus gets a lot of bad publicity because this safe design has a fatality rate equal to or greater than other general aviation aircraft! So how does this happen? My guess is the “safe design” attracts more than their fair share of weak pilots. Those pilots that never acquired good decision making or piloting skills, habits, techniques, etc.
I think some in the group may have put you into that category from your statement that you are a 50 hr per year VFR pilot with no intentions of obtaining advanced ratings - no one asked about your total time, experience or intentions and what part of the country will you fly? Are we talking about Arizona, Oregon or somewhere in between? What size runways will you be utilizing? Greater than 5000’ or less? What are some of the destinations that you’re planning to fly to? What attracted YOU to a Cirrus Design?
Dangerous? I have read NTSB reports on Cirrus fatal accidents which I suggest that you do also - while you are reading them see if you see yourself in any of those situations. Putting aside how these pilots got into these situations - ask yourself why didn’t they pull the chute? Something to save their lives and so simple to do - yet they chose not to!
For really good instruction in Cirrus aircraft-this forum is filled with some of the best instructors - just ask.
Dangerous? We have a member who has been in the spotlight this past year, his engine quit over the Bahamas, he pulled the chute, survived, and bought another Cirrus! I think that’s a tribute to the design of the aircraft.
I hope this adds some balance to your decision. Good luck, fly safe!
Alex is OK. Maybe he saved my life [;)] I had one flight with instructor and it was all good except for a lack of feedback from the sidestick. It was always the same. Cirrus certainly is not an airplane for a casual pilot. I see maneuvering as the least safe part of that airplane. I just do not want to get into a spin on the turn from base to final. Technologically it is an awesome airplane but if you get a rusty pilot in the cockpit and throw in few stress factors then accident becomes quite a possibility.
So, I want to be able to feel reasonably safe even if I have not flown for a month.
There are many factors that may or may not go along with 50 hours of Paul’s flying per year. For example, how many hours does he practice in the PC based Sim so that perishable skills stay fresh? Are procedures “burned in” regularly via the Sim? In short how many hours are spent with one’s head in the game? While I don’t agree with everything Alex has said, I do believe he is correct. If you can’t fly regularly, then move on to a more forgiving aircraft or fly only with an instructor in an SRxx.